mack_turtle Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I live in the middle of SATN. I know my way around it pretty well at this point, although I don't know the names of every segment.The network is very difficult to navigate due to its patchwork format, so riders new to the area will need a guide present or spend a lot of time staring at maps to get the most out of it. A physical guide is not always available and, from personal experience, guiding someone whose skills don’t match mine (either they are too fast or too slow) through the trails can be frustrating. Turn-by-turn navigation on a GPS unit has been pretty useless in the wood, but it might be improving. I have a relatively low-tech solution I’d like to try to help riders navigate the area for the first time: record audio of myself narrating the trail as I ride it, edit it down into sections, and share it like a podcast. A rider could download it and listen to me jabber at them about upcoming intersections, tricky sections, where to bail out if necessary, etc. It would be like one of those audio tour guides that you pick up at a museum. Most headphones have controls built into the unit, so a rider could pause the recording easily if I they fall behind my narrative and need to catch up. Before I try such a thing, what legal and pragmatic concerns should I consider? I’ll have to get the following sorted out: Sound quality- I have my phone, a headset with a built-in speaker, and a standalone digital voice recorder as well. I’ll have to experiment with sound quality, but my main concern would be mitigating wind noise. Maybe rig the recorder to my chest and put a fuzzy wind-cancelling ball on the mic? Legal- I don’t want to be held responsible if someone gets lost, injured, or stumbles into a private property while using my guide. I would err on the side of caution when it comes to guiding people through grey area trails, which is a lot of this system- trails that connect greenbelts that the neighbors use openly to walk their dogs and ride bikes, but most is not recognized by the city. User experience- I want to ride at a slow enough pace that even slow riders can keep up and set it up so they can pause it if they don’t make it to the next landmark when I do in the recording. This will mostly be a matter of my skill as a narrator. I would also break the tour into segments, maybe 5 or 10 mile loops that riders can download individually and string together any way they choose. My hope is just that a few people will find this useful, and I’ll have fun doing it. No expectations that I’ll make money or change the world with this. If it is successful, maybe other people will make their own audio trail tours and make them better than mine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomreece Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Cool idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 Other option- film my ride with my old decommissioned iPhone 4s or buy a used GoPro, film the ride, record narration at home later. I don't care enough to spend a lot of money and time on producing videos, but a video that I can watch for reference and timing would be useful to just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Just make up a thousand little signs that read "You Are Here" with an arrow pointing at the ground and deploy those at the SATN trails intersections. Probably won't help with navigation, but it could be fun to sit in the bushes and listen to lost riders curse them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I believe the video would work better for 2 reasons. First the podcast is great, but there is a reference point issue. Much like a museum narration, it requires you to start and stop a lot, which is not ideal. You will move at a different speed than the listener, creating a timing/sequence issue. Second, the real learning for most people will be visual. "when you get to the place where the trail veers to the left" sounds easy, but on a twisty trail, was it that spot or this spot? Being able to SEE the transitions would be a big help. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) Considering the utility of MTBProject and TrailForks for experiencing new trails it could be easy enough to snap a photo at the intersections and add it to the map with a descriptive caption. Or, if their linking allows, a 20 second video that could be called up at the intersection showing each path with a description. Then the rider can choose when to get the 411 on where they are, based on their location on the phone app. Maybe put a mention of those apps on the "You Are Here" signs? Edited July 16, 2019 by Ridenfool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) @AustinBike I see what you are saying, but the whole point of this is to create an audio only guide that people can use while riding on the trail. How would one watch a trail video while riding? How long would you phone battery last? I would not recommend anyone strap a phone to their stem and wear out their battery trying to watch a video while pedaling. It's possible that it would not work at all, but I can make the narration work if it's done right. "Ride through this rocky section until you get to this profoundly indistinguishable landmark. Hit pause and resume when you get there. I am Xx.xx miles from the start at this point." Most headphones have a control button on the cord that the rider can flick without stopping until they reach the next reference point. Also, I don't have the funds to buy a decent action camera right now, nor a computer/ software to handle editing it, let alone the time to do all that. Acquiring all the gear would rival what I've spent on my bike for a lot less fun. 99% of the ride videos I have tried to watch are boring AF so I am trying to do something more useful and interesting. No one wants to watch a video of ME bumbling through the woods, as riding it themselves would be way more interesting. Edited July 16, 2019 by mack_turtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) I am also trying to create a hands-free tech experience. Stopping to dig your phone out of your pack every 8 minutes sucks. Navigating SATN by reference videos would mean stopping every 50 feet to watch a video or dicypher a photo. A guide whispering in your ear is more integrated into the experience. What is the state of turn-by-turn GPS navigation for trails these days? I have not tried it. I carry my phone with me when I ride, but it's useless for navigating trails under a canopy of trees. Plus, most people have a smartphone that can play podcasts already. New riders, and tightwads like me, are not going to blow $200-300 or more on something but would benefit from better navigation help. Edited July 16, 2019 by mack_turtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Learning my way around the BCGB, and unmentionable trails, was always best handled for me by attending an AB led "no drop" ride. There were both audio and visual components. I agree that managing any kind of tech to help with trail navigation will always cut into the riding experience. This is balanced with the fact that I won't fly down unknown trails either, so the impact is reduced. In lieu of having a guide along, the phone apps for trails are still better than riding around guessing which way to go and hoping to get it right. When I ride someplace new I'll keep my phone in a front pocket of my shorts and whup it out as needed. It only takes seconds, particularly if I've planned my route and just need to glance at it to verify the location or the turn. When it is a long ride I'll carry a booster battery pack to top up the phone if needed, but I've never had to so far. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 55 minutes ago, mack_turtle said: @AustinBike I see what you are saying, but the whole point of this is to create an audio only guide that people can use while riding on the trail. How would one watch a trail video while riding? How long would you phone battery last? I would not recommend anyone strap a phone to their stem and wear out their battery trying to watch a video while pedaling. It's possible that it would not work at all, but I can make the narration work if it's done right. "Ride through this rocky section until you get to this profoundly indistinguishable landmark. Hit pause and resume when you get there. I am Xx.xx miles from the start at this point." Most headphones have a control button on the cord that the rider can flick without stopping until they reach the next reference point. Also, I don't have the funds to buy a decent action camera right now, nor a computer/ software to handle editing it, let alone the time to do all that. Acquiring all the gear would rival what I've spent on my bike for a lot less fun. 99% of the ride videos I have tried to watch are boring AF so I am trying to do something more useful and interesting. No one wants to watch a video of ME bumbling through the woods, as riding it themselves would be way more interesting. My thought would be that you watch the video before you ride, (or after to see where you should have turned). Definitely not while you ride. That is my other issue with a podcast - people trying to pay attention to where they should be by podcast vs. having the situational awareness that there are other riders, obstacles and snakes to watch for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 36 minutes ago, Ridenfool said: Learning my way around the BCGB, and unmentionable trails, was always best handled for me by attending an AB led "no drop" ride. I still do this but now it is a drop ride. Buyer beware 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, AustinBike said: My thought would be that you watch the video before you ride, (or after to see where you should have turned). Definitely not while you ride. That is my other issue with a podcast - people trying to pay attention to where they should be by podcast vs. having the situational awareness that there are other riders, obstacles and snakes to watch for. Some people are better at following directions than I am, but there are so many possible turns in most trail systems that most people will not remember enough of the video to keep up. Imagine navigating from DNP to Drip Drop by memorizing a video. There are dozens of possible wrong turns here so you have to have a genius-level memory, or refer to the video 20 times in the course of three miles. If video is the only way to do that, I'm out anyhow. Someone with the dough and the time to make a worthwhile video would have to get it done. People listen to music in headphones while riding. I think this is mostly a bad idea, but it can be done. Edited July 16, 2019 by mack_turtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taco_junkie Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 18 minutes ago, mack_turtle said: Imagine navigating from DNP to Drip Drop by memorizing a video. Shoot I've ridden that a hundred times and I still take a wrong turn now and then. All trails lead to adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntonioGG Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I've followed someone at the SATN a few times but I could never repeat that same loop. However, I just went down there with plenty of fluids and food and explored, and now I can find my way around more or less. I have pretty good navigation sense if I look at a map before hand so that limits how many times I have to stop to look at my phone. I have a camera you can have with all the accessories you can have. It's GoPro knock-off. I don't know why I bought it (I also have an original Gopro which I never used). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 16, 2019 Author Share Posted July 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, AntonioGG said: I have a camera you can have with all the accessories you can have. It's GoPro knock-off. I don't know why I bought it (I also have an original Gopro which I never used). I'll take you up on that. I need to get a computer that can handle it first. I tried to upload a 10 minutes cell phone video on ye olde lap top a while back and I thought it was going to catch fire while it tried to "process" the video for over eight hours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 16 hours ago, mack_turtle said: People listen to music in headphones while riding. I think this is mostly a bad idea, but it can be done. That is part of my point. A podcast encourages it. I like Antonio's version - go out and get lost. When I learn trails it is typically by riding with someone else that knows the trails. Otherwise I try to look at maps to see the general direction, but with those trails that is impossible. I like Antonio's plan of just wandering. But I'm an old man and cranky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 Getting lost can be ideal, except when it's not. The first time I rode BCGB around 2013, I ran out of water in my 3L pack, my phone died because I spent so much time trying to figure out how to escape, and I ended up hiking through someone's back yard to get to a familiar road and limp home. Some trails are easier to navigate than that but something that makes it easier for first-timers to not waste their time would be great. Maybe I just have a horrible sense of direction, combined with a fantastic sense of ADVENTURE! A voice whispering directions in your ear is a lot less distracting than blasting Nickelback or whatever the freds are listening to while chasing KOMs these days. Maybe getting lost in SATN is not as bad as I make it out to be. I've just had a lot of lousy experiences getting lost and riding in circles on new trails, so I'd like to make that easier. Videos are too hard to use on the trail and maps don't work in the woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxagent Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) I appreciate you wanting to help and trying to come up with a way to do that. But since I am a cranky old man just like AB, let me encourage you to *NOT* do this. If you do this and make it publicly available - you would probably get trails closed and open yourself and others up to being sued. Once this is publicly available, it is only a matter of time before the land owner finds it. But since ALL trails are opened and ridden only with land owner permission - that is no big deal - right? RIGHT?!?! So why would the land owner care? Because what was a slow trickle of riders that kept the trail small and quiet turns into a flood of riders that turns the trail into a super highway with all kinds of people on it. Now there are so many people on it that the neighbors start complaining about the traffic, noise, litter and even parking. Some of the new riders decide to "help" improve the trail and take out a branch here and a rock there. Then somebody decides that a tree gate is too tight and it is slowing them down so that tree has to go. Pretty soon what was nice tight single track starts to look like a down hill snow ski run. Then speeds get higher and higher as people go for the KOM on that trail. But wait - the podcast has invited new people to the trail who have never been there. So they are riding slowly and listening to the podcast. And a KOM rider meets the new rider in a huge impact. And one of them gets taken out by Life Flight. Now the land owner is put on notice that the land owner MAY have to pay for the injuries / medical bills because the injured riders insurance company is looking to sue them to recover damages. Shortly there after the environmentalist find out about it and decide they need to make that area a preserve so they can fence it off and keep those nasty mountain bikers out. And the land owner thinks that might be a better option than being sued over people using their land. Think this is some far fetched, made up story???? It happened. Right. Here. In. Austin. (Actually I have combined two actual stories. The insurance company suing to recover damages was from a different incident than the trail I started describing.) I would encourage you to take people out and show them the trails. This also gives you a chance to decide which trails they should or should not ride. You can point them to appropriate trails. It also gives you the chance to impress upon them the "rules" for using the trails. And that if they bring other people to the trail they pass on the "rules" to the new riders too. If you want to do more than that - point them to MTBProject or TrailForks. Both of those are trying to show only appropriate trails. But this is just my opinion as a cranky old man. One that has been dealing with this kind of thing for a few years now. And is about to hand that job off to the next person who will take it. Edited July 17, 2019 by cxagent Typo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) Thanks, that is what I was afraid of, CX. I don’t want to make things hard for us, so I’ll find another way to use this idea. Maybe. FWIW, when I guide people around SATN, I avoid a lot of routes that I know other people use for this reason. Very little of SATN is “official” and would not be a good idea to expose it any more than Strava already does. However, I just looked on Trailforks and there’s a ton of stuff on there that probably should not be. (Go look at the map on Trailforks and the stuff that people have marked on there will make your blood boil!) I’ve railed against this kind of stuff but the optimists keep assuming they can get away with it. This is why I usually ride alone, no one wants to ride with a party pooper. I have this drive to create and share stuff like this and I need an outlet for it. I used to work in newspapers, which is a great way to make almost no money, then get laid off and make literally no money. When I was younger, I rode BMX and carried a 30-pound backpack full of photo gear. After many hard-headed years of trying to wrangle riders for photo shoots, get them to try something enough times to get the right photo, then try in vain to find an audience for all that work, I sold my camera crap and just enjoyed riding my bike. No one appreciated my efforts and it was not very good anyways. Camera gear is not cheap and you can’t complete with insufficient gear. About two years ago, I spent a whole day filming myself riding SATN. it was a ton of work and the results were boring, even to me. I would have enjoyed it more if I had just ridden my bike and savored the memories in my head until they fade away like tears, in rain. Still, my drive to document and share stuff is strong. I need to focus on my blog and maybe just take more candid cell phone photos to share instead. Shared memories of those places, people and rides will last longer and be more appreciated. Edited July 17, 2019 by mack_turtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxagent Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I hear you. I also wanted to do things to help other and especially new riders. I finally decided the best way to do that was to keep trails open. Maybe for you the blog is the best way. I will check TF when I can. They have been really good when troublesome trails are identified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 7/17/2019 at 10:17 AM, mack_turtle said: Still, my drive to document and share stuff is strong. I need to focus on my blog and maybe just take more candid cell phone photos to share instead. Shared memories of those places, people and rides will last longer and be more appreciated. Yep, I totally get this. Some people spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to share trail knowledge with others. It is a thankless task. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Um, yeah, AB, about that ... Thanks 🍻 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 AB, your site is amazing. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxagent Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, AustinBike said: Yep, I totally get this. Some people spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to share trail knowledge with others. It is a thankless task. Yes. And some people do a good job of walking the line between providing appropriate information and providing too much information. Great job AB! And Thank You! (See it is not a completely thankless task 😉 ) Edited July 19, 2019 by cxagent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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