Group Ride guidelines. Feedback please

[The Tip]

Crank and Drank has gotten to be a pretty well attended ride each week. It's hard to educate everyone on things that will make the ride go better. I came up with the following list. I am presenting it here to get feedback to anything I missed. Also anything that needs not be said. 

I think the optimum number in a group is 10. We don't always get enough ride leader volunteers (that will be another thread!) so sometimes we have up to 20 in a group. That is all the more reason to educate folks to things that will make the group ride better.

                      Group Ride Guidelines

                            Things you can do to make group rides more enjoyable for everyone

Repeat call outs for turns (left, right). Listen to make sure the person behind you is calling them out too. Don’t lose the person behind you. It is helpful for the sweep to shout out “clear” when they get past the turn to alert the leader to the relative positions of the group.

Repeat warning shouts coming from the riders in front of you. “Head!” or “Challenge coming” or “Walkers/Riders up” are things that the entire group need to know. Again, it’s good for the leader to hear the sweep say, “cleared’ when they finally get past the “Challenge” that might have stopped some of the group. The leader will have slowed the pace waiting for that.

Repeat the ride leader’s educational shouts too. “This trail’s name is…”

If you can’t see the person in front of you, yell out “which way?!” to alert them that the chain has broken. The person in front of you that hears this can then shout out to the leader, “We’ve lost some” so the leader will slow down to allow a catch up.

If you don’t clear a feature or hill, get yourself and your bike off the trail so people behind you won’t have to stop. Reenter the chain as soon as possible.

Have your bike mechanically ready before the ride. Both so you can start on time, and so it won’t have a preventable problem on the ride. For example, have enough sealant in to stop a puncture.

Bring lights if the ride might continue past sundown.

Bring enough water so the group doesn’t have to worry about you passing out.

If you do have to stop for a mechanical problem, send everyone that is not helping you on their way. “I’m good. I have what I need. Go on.” But, of course, be sure you have all that you need before doing so.

When you are the sweep listen for the leader asking, “are we good to go?” so you can respond, “Ride on” or, “good to go.”

If you have to stop for anything, shout out, “stopping!” before you do so. Don’t get rear ended.

Acknowledge other trail users with “thank you” or ‘how’s it going?”  or “pretty dog” etc as you pass them. Present mountain bikers as a good community.

This is not the time for ear buds. Be social! Also, you need to be able to hear what the group is doing.

Be aware of all your bodily functions and know there is someone right on your rear wheel!

-FOR RIDES THAT HAVE MULTIPLE GROUPS:

Try to use a ride app on your solo rides before the group ride so you know what your general speed is out ON THE TRAILS. This helps you know what group you should be in.

When on a multi-group ride, if you are holding up a faster group, drop back to the next fastest group. Don’t be too much of a drag for any group.

 

[mack_turtle]

45 minutes ago, The Tip said:

Be aware of all your bodily functions and know there is someone right on your rear wheel!

apologies to anyone who was following me last night.

but seriously, I know these trails very, very well. or at least, I know how to navigate them on my own in a spontaneous way. I have carefully studied the maps you create before a ride, but I know there are some weird turns that I will miss at some point and lead my group headlong into another group, like what happened at least twice last night. that's why I usually don't volunteer to lead. if you can plan a route such that they don't have those hairpin/ unnatural turns, it would avoid a lot of that. maybe even make the route such that two options that lead to the same place going the same direction.

for example, don't route eastbound on Slalom and then immediately west on North Bank. if you're going to send people from the soccer fields in Circle C to the Escarpment spillway, there are two ways to do that south of the creek (gravel trail and Disco Go) and three ways north of the creek (walk, no walk, gravel trail) plus options in and among No Walk.

 

easier said than done, I know! how do you create these routes, by the way? do you just ride them and then share the map, or can you create them in Strava using an online tool?

[mack_turtle]

Also, I am done with lending tools to people on a ride. Not a CnD ride, but someone nearly broke my pump the last time I lent it out. He was riding very thin tires and didn't want to carry anything heavy like a pump. Bring your own stuff to fix your bike! Unless it's a safety concern, DIY or walk.

Karma will bite me in the ass on my next ride when I forget something.

Edited September 25, 2019 by mack_turtle

[The Tip]

I address Mack Turtle's concerns in the SATN thread.

Looking for input on the group ride guidelines here.

[crazyt]

thats a lot of rules. I would try to pare them down to be shorter and fewer.

[notyal]

Don't be "that guy" pretty much sums up group ride rules. 

That guy who is always too slow

That guy who is never on time

That guy who is never prepared

That guy who doesn't bring his own damn beer.

[Jackie]

Great recap of trail etiquette and how things should go on Group rides. Thanks again for everything you do for the cycling community, especially the many, many hours of trail work. I’ve watched this ride grow to become very popular, with large numbers of riders. A recap like this will help newer riders and serve as a solid reminder to all. Being courteous, as you mentioned here and regularly is paramount , and the public’s perception of the cycling community may depend entirely on what they see on and around the SATN. 

[druber]

In addition to this one:

"If you don’t clear a feature or hill, get yourself and your bike off the trail so people behind you won’t have to stop. Reenter the chain as soon as possible."

I'd add:

"If this happens frequently, consider riding behind the riders that consistently clear the features."

[CBaron]

Here's another one that I don't think was mentioned in your OP.

What are the general guidelines for riders 'moving up in placing' once the group enters an opening (such as a road connector or park area)?

-CJB

[The Tip]

1 hour ago, notyal said:

Don't be "that guy" pretty much sums up group ride rules. 

That guy who is always too slow

That guy who is never on time

That guy who is never prepared

That guy who doesn't bring his own damn beer.

But has history not taught us that "that guy" doesn't KNOW he's that guy?

And there's probably not a cure for that guy anyway? That guy will read this list and think, "I'm glad they are trying to educate that guy."

So perhaps these suggestions are to educate only those that can be educated.

 

Crazyt, suggest some that don't need to be said. And thanks, this is the input I'm looking for.

[The Tip]

1 minute ago, CBaron said:

Here's another one that I don't think was mentioned in your OP.

What are the general guidelines for riders 'moving up in placing' once the group enters an opening (such as a road connector or park area)?

-CJB

Ha! That's an excellent question. That is NEVER a problem for me (😁) so I wouldn't think to address it. A simple, "passing" said out loud? Suggestions?

As a ride leader I frequently give the option for anyone to get ahead of me if the pace is too slow for them. But that would be in a list of suggestions for ride leaders. 

[mack_turtle]

One more guideline: let the singlespeeders pass you before a hill climb. They do not have the option of slowing down. Pass them on the downhill.

[The Tip]

50 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

One more guideline: let the singlespeeders pass you before a hill climb. They do not have the option of slowing down. Pass them on the downhill.

LOL, I'm suppose to know what kind of bike the guy behind me is riding? 

I think this problem would be solved by addressing the issue that CBaron brought up. How to politely say, 'get the f--- out of my way slow poke."

[CBaron]

1 hour ago, The Tip said:

Ha! That's an excellent question. That is NEVER a problem for me (😁) so I wouldn't think to address it. A simple, "passing" said out loud? Suggestions?

As a ride leader I frequently give the option for anyone to get ahead of me if the pace is too slow for them. But that would be in a list of suggestions for ride leaders. 

I'm looking at it from the other perspective.  With 20+ish riders rolling out on the fast-group, there are quite a few riders who may feel that they should be further up on the congo line.  Truthfully, its not unlike a road ride, where if you are too far back (in the pack) its easy to get stuck back when the split happens.  Thus quite a few are trying to improve their position when we all get to the wider, open, more chill spots on the trail.  But what it does is essentially turns the ride into a mini-race where people DO NOT want to give up their position, everyone starts competing for the coveted 'front' positions.  

I've always been of the mind-set that you can/may jockey for a place as the ride rolls out of the parking lot, but once you enter the single track you really move up or down the line based on merit of your technical riding.  I.e. make a mistake, you fall back.....the guy in front makes a mistake, you move fwd.  Once you end up in the street/road/park, you don't try and pimp 5 more people before entering into the next batch of single track.  There are some basic exceptions to this etiquette, but its what I've learned/observed over 25 yrs of riding.  But with these big rides with lots of (capable) fast riders, it leads to a bit of a 'competitive' dynamic.

Cheers, -CJB

PS- after re-reading my comments above, it may seem that I'm actually complaining about things.  Thats not really the case; its just an observation from a non-regular.  I've been riding and racing long enough to where I can handle myself in many (of these) situations and I rarely get too ruffled

[throet]

This thread reminds me why I like to ride solo or in very small groups 

[The Tip]

2 hours ago, throet said:

This thread reminds me why I like to ride solo or in very small groups 

Ha! I get that. I ride solo a lot too. 

But to me the minor problems in group rides are more than offset by the rewards. 

[The Tip]

3 hours ago, CBaron said:

.  With 20+ish riders rolling out on the fast-group,..

PS- after re-reading my comments above, it may seem that I'm actually complaining about things.  Thats not really the case; its just an observation from a non-regular.  I've been riding and racing long enough to where I can handle myself in many (of these) situations and I rarely get too ruffled

Two things in your post. The first being that 20 folks in the fast group is too many of course. We've tried to do two separate but equal groups of 10ish before. But it's difficult to determine which fast leader should go off first. But again, ride leadership is a different issue. Lots of people want to try the fast group. All the more reason to attempt to have that chain ride more smoothly by following some simple guidelines.

Second, your post did not come off as complaining. It is very logical. There is a minor issue, that if addressed and solved, would make the rides slightly more enjoyable. That's all we are trying to do here.

Something like this?: "A common etiquette is to allow a rider to pass you if they have been on your wheel pressing you. The behind rider says, "passing" and you should let them pass. Also common is when continuing from a rest stop to resume the same order that the group stopped in. "

I don't think this is much of an issue except in the first group though. Would this be adding more points than is required on the general guidelines? Since this is a more group specific issue would it be better just to be talked about by that ride leader a few times to instill that etiquette as the norm?

[AntonioGG]

3 hours ago, throet said:

This thread reminds me why I like to ride solo or in very small groups 

That was exactly my thought!

[TheX]

I'm just getting back to where I can ride with groups. I'm usually good for 2.5 hours before the pain in my spine makes me stop, some days it's less. I have some 30mm rise bars due tomorrow, I'm hoping that helps. I hate to slow people down.

[notyal]

1 hour ago, The Tip said:

I don't think this is much of an issue except in the first group though. Would this be adding more points than is required on the general guidelines? Since this is a more group specific issue would it be better just to be talked about by that ride leader a few times to instill that etiquette as the norm?

It's less of an issue on C&D vs. a large group on a more technical trail. I've been super frustrated on group rides on BCGB where the same dude keep jumping towards the front after every stop or wide spot, then mess up anything even slightly technical and bottleneck the rest of the pack. Again, don't be that guy.

(Not directed at you Tip, just quoting you for reference.)

[cxagent]

9 hours ago, crazyt said:

thats a lot of rules. I would try to pare them down to be shorter and fewer.

How about zero rules - just ride alone.

[notyal]

3 minutes ago, cxagent said:

How about zero rules - just ride alone.

Dude, that's a rule.

[cxagent]

14 hours ago, notyal said:

Dude, that's a rule.

It more like a guideline...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMkuPiIZ2k

[The Tip]

On my morning ride today I thought of a more friendly, team oriented way, of addressing the passing issue. How's this sound:

"Don't be possessive of your place in line. If there is a constant gap in front of you, and there has been a rider constantly on your back tire, let them pass. This prevents the chain from breaking."

Because really, just because you can pass someone, if there is no place in front of them, there isn't any point in doing so.

Edited September 26, 2019 by The Tip

[CBaron]

2 hours ago, The Tip said:

On my morning ride today I thought of a more friendly, team oriented way, of addressing the passing issue. How's this sound:

"Don't be possessive of your place in line. If there is a constant gap in front of you, and there has been a rider constantly on your back tire, let them pass. This helps keep the chain from breaking."

Because really, just because you can pass someone, if there is no place in front of them, there isn't any point in doing so.

The wording and sentiment in there is good.

 But I'm not so sure the problem lies with just the person in front of you.  When your in the congo line with nearly 20 people, you are wanting to hedge your bet towards the next 5+ guys in front of you, where the 5th guy up might come un-hitched (or bobble a tech section) and send "you" back.  Thus you are wanting to constantly keep moving fwd to mitigate this.  Truthfully, I'm not entirely sure this is solvable with 'verbal guidance'.  The more, I too have thought about it, the more I think its a numbers thing.  With that many people in one fast group (with many turns/intersections), its just simply going to happen.  The solution really is smaller groups.

Like I said previously, I don't think this is some big issue.  But it is something subtle that I noticed last 2x's I've been out.

That being said, I love the ride, and I love the scene.  I wouldn't have even mentioned anything if you had not asked for "group riding tips & suggestions"

Later,
CJB