RidingAgain Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Ooooohhhh... You're so bad, Barney Bike Boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 Yeah, nobody ever said that they would go away. The premise here for me is that they are a niche item and as such, they are subject to all of the high fixed cost issues. In all honesty, the best thing that manufacturers can do is maintain a separate P&L for e-bikes and let them live or die based on demand. The worst thing they could do in blend the costs (and sales data) into the rest of their product lines, thus negatively impacting the other parts of their business if they can't compete. Seen this a lot on the tech side. "We have this new widget, it's really cool." "What does it cost to make?" "Well, that is an interesting story..." I know a lot of people here have worked at Dell over the years. They have a good methodology. Look at all of the things they did, including TVs, that are gone. P&Ls matter. Now look at HP, who basically funds their PC business off of printer ink. And is on the cusp of being bough out by Xerox. Yes, that Xerox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) Dell has one goal today... Pay off its debt load. And everything it does is directed at accomplishing this end as soon as possible. Because of this, its consumer division (home computers, TVs, etc.) has taken a backseat to its client-solutions division. HP's problems just represent terrible management. Line extension is always a risky business as it waters down the branding of your core product offering. What is Amazon? What is eBay? What is Craigslist? What is Facebook? What is Apple? What is Samsung... Or Sony? Obviously, given Amazon's success, a company can successfully sell multiple products to all sorts of different consumers... It's just a matter of how you position the company in the minds of those you want to buy from you. Dell went off the rails some years back... And although it has done well getting things back on track... There's still a bit of a way to go. Hopefully the core senior management group that Mr. Dell has surrounded himself with can stay the course and make it happen. Edited March 9, 2020 by RidingAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tip Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, TheX said: My favorite of all the guitars I own. Very close second. Exactly Edited March 9, 2020 by The Tip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tip Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 I really do love the guitar analogy. When you are playing an electric guitar you are NOT playing an acoustic guitar. No argument. But you ARE playing a type of guitar. Takes the same skills. But to play louder on the electric you just have to turn a switch, not hurt your fingers. You might have one of each like TheX does. If you can afford to have two. You use them for different things. But you enjoy them both. Do all guitar companies make both? Do they have different divisions if they do? And finally, it doesn't matter which one you are playing, you are still making music. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheX Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, The Tip said: I really do love the guitar analogy. When you are playing an electric guitar you are NOT playing an acoustic guitar. No argument. But you ARE playing a type of guitar. Takes the same skills. But to play louder on the electric you just have to turn a switch, not hurt your fingers. You might have one of each like TheX does. If you can afford to have two. You use them for different things. But you enjoy them both. Do all guitar companies make both? Do they have different divisions if they do? And finally, it doesn't matter which one you are playing, you are still making music. I have WAY too many, but I spend my quality time on the Ramirez 125 Anos Classical. That goldtop is a 1973 Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, and it's a nice guitar, but...nylon strings are what I love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluggo Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Barry said: I don't think they're going away. They're just going to find their segment and live there. Ebikes are not the new 29er, they're the new fat bike. You’re right, but they’re way more fun than a fat bike and will be a much bigger segment overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 12 hours ago, Sluggo said: You’re right, but they’re way more fun than a fat bike In the right circumstance, I disagree. 12 hours ago, Sluggo said: and will be a much bigger segment overall. This is certainly true. Outside of a few weirdos, a fat bike's usefulness is location and conditions dependent. Ebikes will be everywhere, just with a specific user base falling into one of a few categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 What about e-fat bikes?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 I want an e-Surly Big Fat Dummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Is it an e-Surly, e-big, or e-dummy? E-cargo bike or cargo e-bike? I feel like an e-dummy for asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATXZJ Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 marketing always brings the lolz. When kona first introduced an eMTB. https://nsmb.com/articles/e-bike-you-cant-hate/ Fast forward to present. https://bikerumor.com/2019/11/05/first-ride-review-kona-remote-160-enduro-e-mtb-makes-a-hero-of-everyone/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notyal Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 I had the pleasure of demoing a Specialized Turbo Levo SL this weekend. It was awesome. I couldn't stop smiling. My only complaint was that I wanted to keep riding it, but it was time to go home. That is really the only reason I wouldn't consider owning one as my only or primary bike. If I was in a situation that I wanted to ride longer or couldn't keep up with the pace and distance of the people I regularly ride with, I'd strongly consider it, but for my average allotted window of time I get to ride, I like the exercise the traditional bike gives me. We rode in a group of 2 e-bikes and 3 regular bikes. There were a few sections of tight, twisty, or technical that the regular bikes were faster. The e-bikes were definitely faster on the extended climbs. Overall, the group still stayed together just as well as any group of 5 average riders of varying fitness. It takes the same level of bike handling, if not more, to keep the wheels moving in the right direction with the extra weight. Technical sections were still challenging. The bike I rode was around 40lbs., so not too bad really compared to some 35+ lb pedal bikes on the market. Compared to other e-bikes discussed in this thread, it's about 10 lbs lighter. (And this was the lowest spec'd Comp version.) I could definitely feel the added weight on jumps and techy stuff when I was trying to unweight the rear end, but it wasn't anything that I couldn't deal with. I rode it some with the assist turned off. It wasn't "fun", but if there was a motor failure, it would be completely doable to pedal it out. Even though it was the SL, thus smaller motor - less power, it had three levels of assist. The strongest "turbo" was too much for normal riding. I was fun zooming uphill on the road or a stretch of double track. Most of the time, Eco mode was all that was needed, but the middle setting was nice at times too. It really is not a set it and go. You still need to shift gears and plan for a climb. Also while we were out there, we ran into a group of 5 or 6 riders, all probably mid-20's, all riding eMTBs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddbrider Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 ^^^ Great commentary on your experience. Do you mind sharing where you were riding? I went to Flat Rock Ranch a few weeks ago and I would have loved to have an ebike out there, but I can't imagine riding one at Walnut, where I rode on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Bug Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 (edited) On 3/10/2020 at 9:01 AM, Barry said: Outside of a few weirdos, a fat bike's usefulness is location and conditions dependent. Exactly. The people I know who live in Utah and Colorado have fat bikes as a regular bike in the stable, because snow and bikepacking where you're likely to encounter sand. Don't see too many around Austin. Edited March 11, 2020 by June Bug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notyal Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 On 3/10/2020 at 2:34 PM, olddbrider said: ^^^ Great commentary on your experience. Do you mind sharing where you were riding? I went to Flat Rock Ranch a few weeks ago and I would have loved to have an ebike out there, but I can't imagine riding one at Walnut, where I rode on Sunday. I would, but I think they are some of the trails we aren't supposed to talk about. Good mix of tech, flow, climbing, and some jumpy bermy sections too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, notyal said: I would, but I think they are some of the trails we aren't supposed to talk about. Good mix of tech, flow, climbing, and some jumpy bermy sections too. If it is what I am thinking of, how did it do in sharp ups. I see the biggest potential problem being the sharp down/sharp up situations where weight and lack of momentum could be your enemy. How did the bike work there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notyal Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 29 minutes ago, AustinBike said: If it is what I am thinking of, how did it do in sharp ups. I see the biggest potential problem being the sharp down/sharp up situations where weight and lack of momentum could be your enemy. How did the bike work there? Pretty well, but yeah, that would be the place where it struggles. Just like any bike, you have to adapt for the handling differences from what you are used to. I ride a Stumpy (and kind of a portly one at that), so this bike felt very familiar already. In sharp up situations, you kinda just have to sit back and pedal knowing that motor is going to kick in giving you super powers. There is a pretty obvious point when you surpass the threshold where the motor isn't helping you as much as you are putting in, so the sit and spin method works better than the get up and hammer method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Magnet Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 One thing I haven’t heard much about ebikes is longevity. I’m rocking a 2014 Nomad right now and it still runs like a top. Would a 6 year old battery/motor still work like it did when I bought it? My 2 year old iPhone can only hold 89% of its charge. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 (edited) All li-ion batteries lose capacity over time and need to be replaced. I get the impression that how much you use or charge the battery might not have much effect on the life cycle of the battery. That's a big deterrent about electric cars for me - the cost of inevitably replacing the battery in a Prius is quite high. That perspective is based on old data that may not be relevant now. E-bikebatteries are probably going to cost a few hundred bucks. A smart rider would buy it new, ride it like there's no tomorrow, monitor the battery, and sell it when the battery goes south. Edited March 12, 2020 by mack_turtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 My guess is that a battery will cost about as much as ripping off a derailleur and munging up your cassette accidentally on the trails. Just consider it maintenance cost and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 I know some of those deraileurs and cassettes are expensive, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntonioGG Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 I wonder if you can just rebuild the pack or someone like Batteries+ can do that? I used to do that with things like shavers and such. I used to build my own packs for RC cars too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, AntonioGG said: I wonder if you can just rebuild the pack or someone like Batteries+ can do that? I used to do that with things like shavers and such. I used to build my own packs for RC cars too. I am sure quite a few people can do that just fine. The average person who thinks they can do that could burn a forest down if they F it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 42 minutes ago, mack_turtle said: I know some of those deraileurs and cassettes are expensive, but... Whoah! suddenly that is way more than I had anticipated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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