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crazyt

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crazyt Rookie

crazyt

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9 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

as soon as a vaccine is available, anti-vaxxers are going to line up for their shots like it's Toilet Paper Day as Costco.

I havent ever spoken to an antivaxxer about the topic, but my sense is that antivaxxers arent against vaccines in general. They just believe the risk outweighs the benefits for some diseases like measles which arent that bad even if you do get them. I know plenty of rabid pro vaxxers that dont get the flu vaccine. It is easy to demonize the other side, but everyone has areas of ignorance and blind spots. For most people science is a religion because it is too complicated to understand. Everyone essentially trusts what scientists say, like priests.

One thing to realize is that all scientific pronouncements are based on statistics. There is a valid school of thought that variability of human beings is so large that we can never gather enough statistics to get full understanding. My opinion is just about anything you can think of can happen in nature at some rate. Vaccines do have very serious side effects at about 1/1,000,000 rate. 

For diseases like polio they no longer give the vaccine in the US because the side effects outweighed the benefits.

For something like covid-19, the benefits would probably be large, and any downsides will probably be similar to the downsides of traditional vaccines.

Most studies are done with white people, so the impact in other "races" could be substantially different.

Scientists are confident that chocolate does not cause acne. What they are really saying is that when they fed chocolate to 100 teenagers, it did not statistically increase the amount of acne. For me, chocolate 100% causes acne.

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crazyt Rookie

crazyt

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20 minutes ago, Chief said:

Thanks for the insurance heads up👍

So far from what I'm gathering this coronavirus is pretty tenacious. This is from the CDC website. Sorry not CDC Harvard health.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjt6LDEzaboAhWBmeAKHQeMBkoQFjADegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.health.harvard.edu%2Fdiseases-and-conditions%2Fcoronavirus-resource-center&usg=AOvVaw1Dxjj9snrsPcAt-fg2E11J

How long can the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 survive on surfaces?

A recent study found that the COVID-19 coronavirus can survive up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard, and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel. The researchers also found that this virus can hang out as droplets in the air for up to three hours before they fall. But most often they will fall more quickly.

There's a lot we still don't know, such as how different conditions, such as exposure to sunlight, heat, or cold, can affect these survival times.

As we learn more, continue to follow the CDC's recommendations for cleaning frequently touched surfaces and objects every day. These include counters, tabletops, doorknobs, bathroom fixtures, toilets, phones, keyboards, tablets, and bedside tables.

If surfaces are dirty, first clean them using a detergent and water, then disinfect them. A list of products suitable for use against COVID-19 is available here. This list has been pre-approved by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for use during the COVID-19 outbreak.

In addition, wash your hands for 20 seconds with soap and water after bringing in packages, or after trips to the grocery store or other places where you may have come into contact with infected surfaces.

 Last but not least yes I realize that information is erroneous and apologize to the community.

corona virus is a well studied virus. What makes a particular strain deadly is our ability to recognize it or not. They keep saying we dont know anything about it and that is true in the sense that it is too new to have replicated every other corona virus study with this strain. But it is likely it behaves very similarly to other viruses that have the same basic makeup.  

One thing they dont mention is that viruses are inactivated very quickly on fabrics, tissues, etc - 15 minutes. They are inactivated relatively quickly on your skin (5-15 minutes). They basically just want to scare people into following their rules by talking about the worst possible case.  Viruses are easily killed by bleach and many other disinfectants.

The COA closed pools, but pools have bleach to kill viruses and being bathed in pool water is probably extremely safe.

 

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Chief Collaborator

Chief

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1 minute ago, crazyt said:

corona virus is a well studied virus. What makes a particular strain deadly is our ability to recognize it or not. They keep saying we dont know anything about it and that is true in the sense that it is too new to have replicated every other corona virus study with this strain. But it is likely it behaves very similarly to other viruses that have the same basic makeup.  

One thing they dont mention is that viruses are inactivated very quickly on fabrics, tissues, etc - 15 minutes. They are inactivated relatively quickly on your skin (5-15 minutes). They basically just want to scare people into following their rules by talking about the worst possible case.  Viruses are easily killed by bleach and many other disinfectants.

The COA closed pools, but pools have bleach to kill viruses and being bathed in pool water is probably extremely safe.

 

I know many think that we are overreacting to this. I believe that this overreaction combined with a little common sense for those who have will go a long way in slowing down the spread of this. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

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bestbike85 Enthusiast

bestbike85

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1 hour ago, crazyt said:

This is not a fact. If your body does mount an immune response to one it means the other might have a harder time to infect, but it is simply not true you cannot have them simultaneously. Coinfection is one way completely novel viruses arise. Their genomes have evolved to be able to mix and match during coinfection.

Look up the terms genetic drift and genetic shift.

I don’t know why you’re trying to argue with me. The medical doctor that I was with and tested positive for the flu with told me word for word “a positive note in this is that you can’t have the flu and covid 19 at the same time.”  Should I call her a liar because crazyt on the internet said so? 
 

 

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AntonioGG Mentor

AntonioGG

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34 minutes ago, AustinBike said:

The best quote that I saw about this subject was a principal that was closing their school and said something to the effect of "did we do too much, we'll probably never know, but if we do too little we will definitely know."

 

100% this!

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RidingAgain Newbie

RidingAgain

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5 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

I attended church for over 30 years- evangelical, baptist, Episcopal, Mennonite, etc. I was baptized in my late 20s. my experience with Christians, especially the Evangelical types, is that many of them LOVE their illusions of persecution. they go out of their way to be annoying and then feign victimhood when they are called out for it. that kind of hypocrisy is what drove me away. the problem is that when you point out hypocrisy to a truly deluded hypocrite, they can't see it. they worship their self-pitying delusion above anything else. they are true idolaters in this sense. 

RA- the more you dig in, the more you push people away from your faith. think about the damage you are doing and whether protecting your ego is worth it.

Okay... So again... I didn't bring up religion... But The above is directed at me — to a degree... So I think I can respond.

No one can "...attend..." church. It's not a function or an event. Church is the word/term that defines a corporate people. You can be a member of the church, but you can only "...attend..." a meeting of church members. And in religion, what you have are various denominations (mack_turtle referenced "...evangelical, baptist, Episcopal, Mennonite, etc..."), with each denomination based on teachings specific to their denomination's doctrines. This fact advocates division between these denominations... Meaning, division is inherent within the culture of denominational religion. And given that scripture tells us that the body of Christ, which is the scriptural thought put forward to define the church that is spoken about in scripture, is one body... Then the inherent division found within denominational religion opposes (meaning, contradicts) the oneness that is spoken to in scripture that is — or should be — the hallmark of the one body of Christ, which is the one church. 

Now what does the above have to do with mack_turtle's comment?

The fact that people hold to denominational religion, even while claiming to be Christian... Is a form of hypocrisy.

Scripture is clear... Christ is one... Therefore... Christ's body is one.

And claiming anything else is only claiming error; this according to scripture. I'm not passing judgement on anyone... Just speaking clearly regarding what scripture clearly says.

And the truth is... Within what is called Christianity (which is the word used to define the religion based on Christ)... There is most certainly a whole lot of hypocrisy.

No doubt about that.

But this is understandable because Christianity, like all religions, is made up of... Get this... People... Meaning... Human beings.

And the nature of humans includes... Hypocrisy. Therefore... Wherever humans are found... You will find hypocrisy being expressed.

This means that hypocrisy isn't the fault of some doctrine written on paper... But the fault of human nature being expressed.

mack_turtle... Although you might chose not to admit it, you are most certainly a hypocrite... Just as most certainly I am a hypocrite... And every one else on this forum is a hypocrite. Different degrees of this may be expressed at any given time... But we are all hypocrites none the less.

Okay... That cleared up... Let's move on to this... 

"...my experience with Christians, especially the Evangelical types, is that many of them LOVE their illusions of persecution. they go out of their way to be annoying and then feign victimhood when they are called out for it. that kind of hypocrisy is what drove me away. the problem is that when you point out hypocrisy to a truly deluded hypocrite, they can't see it. they worship their self-pitying delusion above anything else. they are true idolaters in this sense."

Poor you, mack_turtle... 20 years in Christianity and you finally gave in to your self-serving judgmental disposition. Oh boo hoo. How sad for you having wasted all those years... Just kidding around to show that even in your speaking is some "...self-pity...".

The base of Christian belief... Meaning the foundation of Christian belief... Is... Deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow Jesus.

Everything you just said in your quoted speaking above exposes you as having learned nothing of what scripture actually tells us regarding what the Christ life/living should be. So yes... 20 years in Christianity and it seems you learned zero about the reality regarding what being a Christian actually is. No wonder your conclusion of others is as worldly as any unsaved person's would be... And shoot, it may even be worse... As you are now offended by your whole experience... Possibly because you think there was no profit in it for you... This indicating that you were there for self profit... Which is not, in the context of our earthly life, what being Christian is about.

Honestly... Your above quoted speaking is just normal, meaning utterly common, for people who have gone through the experience you did.

Shoot... It's normal for any experience you would have gone through where you felt personally robbed/violated.

And don't get me wrong... Your assessment of "...self-pitying delusion above anything else. they are true idolaters in this sense..." is bang on.

Why?

Because most people carry the way of the world... Meaning their natural man ways... Into their "...church..." experience.

Any honest look at Christianity will reveal a culture that is filled with worldliness (which is considered anti-Christ in scripture)... No doubt about it. And don't take my word for it... A Google search will result in a ton of articles on the matter. And scripture itself even says the same. Just read about the seven church spoken about in the beginning of the book of Revelation... It's all laid out very clearly.

mack_turtle... What you experienced is nothing new... And is well known by those who take an honest look at the matter.

Now to this...

"...RA- the more you dig in, the more you push people away from your faith. think about the damage you are doing and whether protecting your ego is worth it."

But I'm not digging in, mack_turtle... I'm simply trying to correct an erroneous view... And until you brought up the church... I was only speaking about the matter of "...thoughts and prayers...".

Thoughts simply = Human empathy (to one degree or another... fleeting or deeply genuine).

And prayers (in the common context) simply = Human hope being expressed.

Yes... Many will use the phrase "...My thoughts and prayers are with you...", and do so in a religious way, and really be absolutely empty of any genuine consideration... But should we throw the baby out with the bathwater, because of some superficial folk who just use the phrase without any really meaning for doing so?

I don't think so.

Why?

Because I believe that there is more to our genuine "...thoughts and prayers..." than we understand at this time. And I'm not speaking from second hand knowledge, but from my actual experience. And I know that's easy to say/claim... But I don't say it to bolster my "...ego..."... I say it because it is what it is. Believe me, don't believe me... It doesn't matter to me. You are responsible for yourself. The best I can do is present to you what I know to be true.

And that's what I do on this and other websites... I speak what I believe to be true. And sometimes I make mistakes... But I in no way have ever claimed to be perfect. Far from it.

Anyway...

This comment of mine might finally get me thrown off of this website... I hope not, as I was simply responding to the matter you brought up, mack_turtle... But I understand it's bordering on religious talk, I just thought some of what you said deserved a response.

So...

Maybe now we can get back to the topic of the thread... That being getting outdoors and enjoying riding without the threat of becoming infected by this virus.

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The Tip Community Regular

The Tip

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"Social Distancing"

Who came up with that phrase? Isn't it interesting how quickly society latches on to a buzz word? We certainly are NOT being social with this distancing. Actually are we not trying to stay healthy? Why are we not using the old stand by phrase of "keeping a HEALTHY distance?"

I thought of this on my ride this morning. So I will now be keeping a healthy distance from people.  

"I'm an idea guy Chuck."  😄

 

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TheX Newbie

TheX

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4 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

RA- the more you dig in, the more you push people away from your faith. think about the damage you are doing and whether protecting your ego is worth it.

No one ever looked at him, and said...

I want to be like him.

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mack_turtle Experienced

mack_turtle

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https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-researchers-model-likely-impact/

the implications are shocking.

"do nothing, don't overreact, this thing will burn itself out" will result in about 2-4 million of American deaths from the virus. we'll far exceed our resources to deal with it quickly.

mitigation - closing some things and "social distancing" could easily result in up to 2 millions American deaths.

suppression- sucky closing of everything, the economy takes a big dump, lots of people have horrible side effects. but the death count is down to a few thousand and tapers off after three weeks.

a vaccine is more than a year and a half away. dig in.

If you're feeling really morbid, go watch a Tim Robbins/ Samantha Morten movie called Code 46.

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fontarin Newbie

fontarin

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1 minute ago, mack_turtle said:

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/196234/covid19-imperial-researchers-model-likely-impact/

the implications are shocking.

"do nothing, don't overreact, this thing will burn itself out" will result in about 2-4 million of American deaths from the virus. we'll far exceed our resources to deal with it quickly.

mitigation - closing some things and "social distancing" could easily result in up to 2 millions American deaths.

suppression- sucky closing of everything, the economy takes a big dump, lots of people have horrible side effects. but the death count is down to a few thousand and tapers off after three weeks.

a vaccine is more than a year and a half away. dig in.

Yeah, I was trying to argue that point on Facebook this morning.  Based on Italy's data, this is the best path to avoid many, many deaths.  But 'I'm an RN and think this is overblown!' is apparently better than hard numbers and data science studies.

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