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South Austin Trail Network, The SATN


The Tip

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22 hours ago, The Tip said:

I'll vent here please.

The campaign to educate the public as to trail etiquette is always difficult. But this increase in newbies on the trails is making it just about impossible. 

You're the best of us Tip. 

Like most problems, this is a communication problem that is difficult to solve because both parties are coming at it from different perspectives and experiences.  You know all the hard work that went into building and maintaining that trail and keeping it open for people to enjoy.  You see riding in the mud as destroying all that work and that pisses you the hell off (rightly so).  I would wager that most of these folks out there riding on muddy trails really have no idea how the trails got there, who maintains them, or how riding them muddy messes them up.  You could try and educate them on this but, as you point out, people who don't want to be educated on something won't listen.  Here is an alternate approach:

When you encounter someone riding muddy trails, ask them about the trail and let them be the expert for a minute.  Ask things like this genuinely, not trying to trap them:  "Was that a cool trail?"  "Do you know who built it?"  "Were there a lot of people riding it when you were out there?"  Get them to think about all those things that you know and so desperately want to drill into their head.  They could ride away before you get to correct any of their misinformation and that would still be a win because they had to THINK about it.  If you get to continue the conversation, you have an opportunity to say things like "I heard at the bike shop that all these trails are maintained by volunteers" and "...they told me that riding in the mud is a great way to ruin a bike and screw up the trail."   Follow that up with "...when it's muddy I think the best place to ride is the veloway or Circle C paths".  This gives them options instead of just telling them they can't do it because your'e the boss of them.  I don't know about you but I HATE it when someone tries to preach to me about something.  I don't care if they know more about it than I know.  I will consume information when I am damn well ready.  Most people feel like this so if you want them to listen, they have to want to listen.  If you piss them off, they'll ride the trails muddy just to 'piss off that mean old mountain biker'.  

Some people are dicks and they won't listen and won't care about anyone other than themselves.  They won't wear a mask in a hospital and they'll blast their music in a school zone while speeding through the cross walk.  Screw those people because they don't care about the blood, sweat, and tears you put into those trails just like they don't care about anyone else.  Those aren't the people I think that we need to reach.  It's the rider that really didn't know any better that you can really help.  Those people WILL listen and they can be educated but it takes work.  

Edited by Tree Magnet
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2 hours ago, cxagent said:

. I look forward to the day when even a few of these people give back to what they take for granted. Maybe participate in a work day. Or write an email / letter to the City supporting trails. There are many many ways they could give back. 

So true. But we both know how unlikely it is for this to happen. Even in our circle of friends it's hard to get anyone to do the most simple "give back."

I know I have a trail maintenance "problem." That's why I like group rides because when I am alone I cannot help stopping to fix something. This happens even when I swear to myself at the start of a ride "I'm not stopping today!" 

But, I have done an experiment more than once, where I purposely did NOT snap a new growth face slapper. A simple stop, snap, and the trail would be clear. But I don't do it. The experiment is, "will anyone do this simple trail improving task?"  Almost always the face slapper stays and the trail begins to widen as everyone just avoids the face slapper. Very sad.

This is not to say there is no one out there doing work. I talk to people that want to do things and do indeed go out. But it is a discouragingly small group.  Even though I do my damnedest to shame all the mudder truckers into doing something!  😄

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...
-... a family of four coming off the new Bambi finish, and turning uphill. I ran from the rut place to shout, "It's really muddy up there. You won't like it." The father's response? "Thank you" as they all rode on. I shouted at their backs, "You'll harm the trail" but they were gone. SOOO frustrating.
Rant over. Thank you

We must atone for their sins and offer up more berms to the trail gods. We must build more berms.. build more berms!

In all seriousness, I’ve traded polite for blunt with these people. “The trail is muddy and YOU will cause serious damage if you ride it... turn around so you’re not that guy.” Sometimes it works and sometimes I get cussed out. However, I make sure it’s their assholeness and not their stupidity that allows them to move forward.
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22 hours ago, Tree Magnet said:

You're the best of us Tip. 

Like most problems, this is a communication problem that is difficult to solve because both parties are coming at it from different perspectives and experiences.  . . .  I don't know about you but I HATE it when someone tries to preach to me about something.  I don't care if they know more about it than I know.  I will consume information when I am damn well ready.  Most people feel like this so if you want them to listen, they have to want to listen.  If you piss them off, they'll ride the trails muddy just to 'piss off that mean old mountain biker'.  


The above hits on the main problems...

1... How communication is carried out.

And...

2... Different perspectives and experience

See... Hating when someone preaches to you is a result of both of the above points.

Look at a TED talk...  People sit there and love to be preached at. And of course, people sitting in a religious setting also love to be preached at.

What's the common factor between both? 

Those people chose the what, when, and where related to them sitting and listening to the preaching.  This is the intrinsic essence of "...I will consume information when I am damn well ready.  Most people feel like this so if you want them to listen, they have to want to listen."

Why do people get out and ride trails?

Because they want to.

Anyone ever encountered a closed trail?  How'd you feel about it?  Someone else exercising some type of authority over you (your choice).  Have you ever seen tire marks going around the closed trail chain?  Those tire marks tell you that some people chose to — I want to say ignore, but it's more than ignore — reject the authority of those who closed the trail. Have you ever been one of those people ("...that guy...")?  And how about illegal trails... Ever ride on them?

As I said above... This is the intrinsic essence of "...I will consume information when I am damn well ready.  Most people feel like this so if you want them to listen, they have to want to listen."

If though, a rider chose to ride around a closed trail chain and ride the trail... And as soon as this person began riding the trail after circumventing the closed sign they hit a land mine that blew up their front tire (a very little land mine), what do you think their reaction would be?  You think their "...I will consume information when I am damn well ready..." disposition/attitude would immediately change?  I'm thinking yes, as they would immediately want to know more about the whole matter right away.

Meaning... Their attention has been gained.

1... How communication is carried out.

2... Different perspectives and experience.

Both are dependent upon what gets the attention of the target market you are trying to communicate with.

And a person riding a trail is riding a trail... Because they want to.

So what is the individual driver for the trail rider?  And what is the common factor related to each individual trail rider?

They... WANT... to ride the trail.

This is the underlying driver... The underlying common base touchpoint for all trail riders... Shoot, for all trail users.  The WANT to ride/use the trail.

And when they are actually using the trail... They do not WANT to stop what they WANT to be doing, in order to "...consume information..." that seems to hinder — or worse, stop — them from doing what they WANT to be doing.  That why we all break laws.

"...JUST DO IT...".

Yep... Blame Nike for this attitude.

Well, not really, but you get my drift... All around us is the promotion of doing whatever makes you feel good. And fk everything else.

All day... Every day... 24/7... 365 days a year... Year after year...  We're now bombarded with messaging that tells us to do whatever makes you feel good... And fk everything else.

Well... Except when a COVID-19 virus hits the fan.  Then maybe things change some... For a short time at least... Then it's back to the norm.

And there it is... "...the norm..."... The answer to the problem.

What is "...the norm..." for trail users... Specifically... Trail riders?

See... There's... "...what they WANT to be doing..."... And then there's "...the norm...".

Now not everyone WANTS to be confined by "...the norm..."...  But some do. And many others who think/say they don't want to be confined by "...the norm...", actually do, but just don't want to look like they do — they want a bit of the James Dean rebel swagger thing (albeit he was under the thumb of the Hollywood mob... but a blind eye can be turned to that little factoid).  Then there are the few who really are rebels, the truly anarchy leaning few who don't really care about "...the norm...".  Why?  Because they associate "...the norm..." with established authority...  Which it for all intents and purposes, is.

Anyway...

So there you have it... There's... "...what they WANT to be doing..."... And then there's "...the norm...".

And most people... In one way or another... And to one degree or another... WANT to be doing "...the norm...".

Whether you WANT to believe it or not... Mountain bike riders are as much about "...the norm..." as tiddlywinks players.  For most people... It's all about "...the norm...".

But why do some ride mountain bikes, and other play tiddlywinks?

Packaging.

Different people like different packaging.

And so now we have... "...what they WANT to be doing..."... Then there's "...the norm..."... And now there's "...packaging...".

And they are all related to... Their attention has been gained.

1... How communication is carried out... And... 2... Different perspectives and experience... Is all about... "...packaging...".

And regarding to context of this sub-discuss that The Tip brought up... Trail users not using the trail properly, and not wanting to listen to advice on how to do so... 

It's all a matter of... "...packaging...".

What Tree Magnet was referring to when he/she (not sure) said, "...But we both know how unlikely it is for this to happen...", and then went on to give examples of why he/she said this... Tree Magnet was speaking about "...packaging..." problems.

Last Saturday I spent around six hours speaking to three different people between 2pm and 1am... Maybe four of those hours discussing spiritual matters from a POV of my Christian belief.  How did this happen?  I was outside my garage working on a bike build and these three people — who I know — just stopped to talk to me. They came to me... I didn't invite them to... They just came by their own choice. And two of them came specifically to speak with me about spiritual matters as they have done so in the past with me. They knew what they were coming to speak to me about.

Here I am... Obviously working on a bicycle that's on a bike stand... And they want to talk to me about spiritual matters.

Why?

Because they WANTED to...

And...

They knew where to FIND that which would meet their need.

Are you getting the picture?

You plant a seed... You water the seed you planted... You reap what the watered seed produces.

BUT... It is the will contained within the seed that causes the seed to do what it is meant to do.  You can plant the seed, you can water the seed, and you can even be ready to reap what you think should be produced... But without the inner will of the seed to do so... The seed won't grow and produce what you desire.

What I'm speaking about is what is referred to in business as the "...marketing mix..."... At least, that what it used to be referred to back in the day.  Not really sure what new fangled wording is used these days. Regardless... It would mean the same thing... All the various matters that need to be properly addressed in order for the desired result to be obtained.

Anyone with me so far?

Anyone stayed the seemingly long-winded course of this comment of mine?

Marketing 101... Know how to present the product... Keep the attention of the target market... And then... Close the interaction in your favor.

How do you get someone on the opposite sidewalk to come to you?

Do you shout at them to come across... Or do you go get them and bring them across?

In my experience... Unless it's a COVID-19 deal... The more successful way is to go get them and bring them across.

Which would mean... In the context of proper trail use by trail users... You need to go to where they are... Most open/ready/acceptable... To agree to you bringing them across to your side of the road.

Now then... What are the what, when and where regarding that being accomplished?

Edited by RidingAgain
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1 hour ago, Yosmithy said:

i have never used an entrance in lost creek, but this is a disturbing trend none the less. hopefully traffic is down by the time the pilot ends, and they don't renew it.

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On 5/20/2020 at 9:48 PM, Yosmithy said:

different neighborhood, but same story. i can understand why these neighborhoods are getting perturbed. 

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/destruction-left-behind-in-neighborhood-hugging-austin-greenbelt-on-memorial-weekend/

after looking at the map, this is actually the HoL entrance off scottish woods. 

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crazy idea: City of Austin should create another legitimate trailhead for BCGB. Scottish Woods and the MOPAC entrance have been stupid-crowded all the time for many years. neither of those have a real parking lot, so people just park on the side of the road and leave a mess. there are no facilities for bathrooms and minimal trash cans there.

 

who owns all the land adjacent from the mall on 360?

Edited by mack_turtle
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Yeah, this is the top of the hill of life neighborhood.

Been problems for many years down at the falls with drinking, nudity, drugs, etc. Actually let me rephrase that, been problems complaints for many years down at the falls with drinking, nudity, drugs, etc. I personally don't have a problem with that. But the one thing I will agree with the homeowners on is the parking/trash situation. If people would just do their thing and not disturb others it would be great. However, that is not the case. This is decidedly not bikers, but we get lumped in with the rest.

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I rode through Stratford Dr last week on a long road ride, just going to the water fountains to reload on water (it was a hot day).  APD had the road blocked to cars because they had tow trucks towing cars parked on both sides of Stratford Dr in that really tight corkscrew section with wheels on the road.  I thanked them for their service and taking care of the cars, I asked if they could do the same at OSS Rd, the officer replied "There's not enough of us".  So this seems to be a huge problem over all of Austin.

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5 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

who owns all the land adjacent from the mall on 360?

City of Austin. The city Greenbelt land goes all the way up to 360. The city land bordering 360 goes quite a ways north of the mall too. So instead of the "No Parking on the ROW" signs they could build a build a narrow parking lot with head in parking almost a mile long. That would accommodate 600 cars.

They could charge $5 to park and have it paid for pretty quick and then stop charging. 

Too simple a solution. It'll never happen.

Remember when people use to park there, along 360, and walk down? Before the signs?

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19 hours ago, The Tip said:

City of Austin. The city Greenbelt land goes all the way up to 360. The city land bordering 360 goes quite a ways north of the mall too. So instead of the "No Parking on the ROW" signs they could build a build a narrow parking lot with head in parking almost a mile long. That would accommodate 600 cars.

They could charge $5 to park and have it paid for pretty quick and then stop charging. 

Too simple a solution. It'll never happen.

Remember when people use to park there, along 360, and walk down? Before the signs?

Everything to the south of 360 across from the mall is BCP. Do you think they will build a parking lot there???

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19 minutes ago, cxagent said:

Everything to the south of 360 across from the mall is BCP. Do you think they will build a parking lot there???

If enough of the people who live near HOL complain, I'll bet they have some pull. if they succeed and keeping people from parking on the street in their neighborhood, all that overflow is going to go somewhere.

the mall parking lot is never full. who goes to malls? some parking for park visitors there and a safe crosswalk at 360 and the mall entrance might be worth it. not that anyone who has any say in it is listening, but that would be my solution.

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1 hour ago, cxagent said:

Everything to the south of 360 across from the mall is BCP. Do you think they will build a parking lot there???

It would be a death match between the BCP and the SOS people as to which would shut down the project first!

Mack Turtle's suggestion is also too logical to work. Have the designated Greenbelt parking near the food court entrance to sell the idea to the mall people. Customers! Of course there would have to be a trail head behind the "No Parking on ROW" signs. See first sentence in my post.

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There used to be an unofficial trailhead there with lots of cars parking on the grass & 360 shoulder. They finally fenced it off though. We call it Rudy's now. There's actually 2 trails there, Rudys and I think the other's called Walls. If they ever made it official it would probably end up like the VC access.

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On 5/26/2020 at 6:26 PM, The Tip said:

Remember when people use to park there, along 360, and walk down? Before the signs?

So somebody else remembers! Thanks chuckt.

How long ago did they fence it off and put up the signs?

Edited by The Tip
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23 hours ago, chuckt said:

Can't say for sure, it was before they built Rudy's.

I too can't recall for sure but I think it was prior to 2000.

 

On 5/27/2020 at 1:58 PM, cxagent said:

Everything to the south of 360 across from the mall is BCP. Do you think they will build a parking lot there???

I hear what you're saying, (and TheTip makes a great point about SOS), but I wonder if the BCP could be persuaded to allow the 1 for 3 (?) exchange for this too?  I recall that when developers were trying to develop on 360 area land that was 'endangered' that they were being permitted to do so if they bought/donated 3x's that amount of acreage into the BCP allotment somewhere else.  I can't remember the exact details, I personally just called it 'indulgences'.  

Later,
CJB

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They tried to have the entrance shut down years ago. I remember the City Council meetings. Council basically said if we shut it down, you will all just create your own private entrances. I quit parking there after that. I rarely drive there, but even when I did, I would park over by Westlake High and ride over. There was also talk of a new entrance in the area you speak of, but I don't recall exactly why it got shut down. As mentioned, that is all BCP land so they aren't exactly trying to increase accessibility or impervious cover. Really, the huge problematic crowds die down once the water dries up. It is really only swimmable for a fraction of weeks out of the year. More realistically, everything outside the main trail/HOL and VC could get fenced off (which has also been brought up). Some things don't need to be super accessible.

More recent - from 2018 - https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/homeowners-trying-to-limit-parking-on-their-street-near-hill-of-life/1294762305/

Edited by GFisher
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