RidingAgain Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just wondering about trail mileage per acre of hillside land. I know it's not an exact science, but something like Slaughter Creek trail... If you could build on all of it but without it becoming like Walnut Creek... With lots more space between trail sections. How large a piece of land is Slaughter Creek trail on, and how large is Walnut Creek? Just wondering what could be done on 500 acres. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Flat Rock Ranch is about as packed with trail as you'd want a trail system to be without feeling too packed. FRR has 1300 sq ft and has about 36-37 miles. It probably has room for 40 total if the north west side was more utilized. ~ 1 mile per 36 acres. WC feels a little too trail dense (I'm not saying it should have less trail). It has only 293 acres and about 14 miles total. ~1 mile per 21 acres. If you wanted to pack 500 acres fairly densely, I suppose you could plan for 1 mile per 30 acres. That would give you 17 miles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 Thanks, Barry... Appreciate the info. Putting together a one page project overview. Now I need to get some trail building pricing. Also, I'm thinking that some sections could be dense trail, while other sections could be a bit more open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAmI Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 The rule of thumb in the professional trail building community is one kilometer to one mile for every 10 acres. The kilometer results in less dense trail, of course. Builders generally let the land dictate the amount of trail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAmI Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Barry said: Flat Rock Ranch is about as packed with trail as you'd want a trail system to be without feeling too packed. FRR has 1300 sq ft and has about 36-37 miles. It probably has room for 40 total if the north west side was more utilized. ~ 1 mile per 36 acres. WC feels a little too trail dense (I'm not saying it should have less trail). It has only 293 acres and about 14 miles total. ~1 mile per 21 acres. If you wanted to pack 500 acres fairly densely, I suppose you could plan for 1 mile per 30 acres. That would give you 17 miles. What isn't accounted for in your scenario are unusable places like land that is too steep, too flat, or in an undesirable area like riparian land or protected land. Trail should not have been built in the flatter areas; you can tell this by the erosion/rutting that has happened on trail not on the slopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Right. I was only addressing density. 13 minutes ago, WhoAmI said: Trail should not have been built in the flatter areas; you can tell this by the erosion/rutting that has happened on trail not on the slopes. Where do you mean? If you're talking about FRR, when was the last time you were there? There were a couple of places with ruts, but they weren't really flat spots--they were slight fall-lines. Anyway almost all of that has been repaired for now. Presumably it'll rut again, and be repaired again until he decides to route it not on the fall line. And that actually yields more trail since fall lines are straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) I've got a typographic map of the land... I'll put it up here. A part of it does have what looks like a 300' ridgeline drop, but not having a scale I can't yet tell just how steep (cliff-like or just steep descent). But Seth seemed to work out some trail lines on really steep hillside. Edited April 13, 2020 by RidingAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluggo Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 I envision multiple B-lines. 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAmI Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Barry said: Right. I was only addressing density. Where do you mean? If you're talking about FRR, when was the last time you were there? There were a couple of places with ruts, but they weren't really flat spots--they were slight fall-lines. Anyway almost all of that has been repaired for now. Presumably it'll rut again, and be repaired again until he decides to route it not on the fall line. And that actually yields more trail since fall lines are straight. I was talking about Slaughter Creek. Jimmie and STORM have done a great job at FRR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJsnoozer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 1 mile per 10 acres as mentioned. Backing out average for infrastructure and parking lot. And access roads. Access roads are very important for trail repair as well as getting Health care and course Marshalls for races. What is the max elevation of the land top to bottom. You can do a lot with a little. The level of foliage and trees can affect how much trail you can fit in per acre. log loop is an excellent trail, that takes up a limited amount of acreage. Some property owners cram in a lot with a twisted design and it ends up with 5 miles of “point six” which gets old. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAmI Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 10 hours ago, FJsnoozer said: The level of foliage and trees can affect how much trail you can fit in per acre. log loop is an excellent trail, that takes up a limited amount of acreage. Some property owners cram in a lot with a twisted design and it ends up with 5 miles of “point six” which gets old. So, Peddler's Pass? I get bored on that trail after five minutes. Too repetitious for my taste, but I understand people like it. And, no, "just go faster" isn't the type of challenge I like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 I like Peddlers Pass, but I'm glad that's not all we have. I particularly like it as a contrast to Deception. But if it was either/or, I'd take Deception no question. But both are an example of trails that are a little too dense, but it works anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 14 hours ago, Sluggo said: I envision multiple B-lines. Or maybe trails with no need for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) Here are a couple overhead images... Highest point is just under 1,000 feet... Low point around 600 feet. Edited April 14, 2020 by RidingAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 This is the actual area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFisher Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) Where is this? North Carolina or something? Edited April 14, 2020 by GFisher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyBadger Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, WhoAmI said: So, Peddler's Pass? I get bored on that trail after five minutes. Too repetitious for my taste, but I understand people like it. And, no, "just go faster" isn't the type of challenge I like. Try riding it for more than five minutes...if you do you'll find there's multiple types of berms, rock gardens, jumps, wall rides, flat bridges, table top bridges, natural wood features, rollers, a flow section, drops, flat turns, insloped turns, creek crossings, hand-build sections, machine build sections etc. etc. I'd say it's not very repetitious...love to know another 3 mile section at Brushy that has as much variation? Edited April 14, 2020 by HoneyBadger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 The project concept is to provide a hospitality environment in which you can stay on the property and bike and hike right out of your abode. The property is right next to a national park, so there's access to another 3,000+ acres with maybe 40 miles of trail. Things like communal eating at a central location on the property will be a part of the environment. And perhaps communal excursions to areas that have lake activity and other hiking/mtb trails. The goal is to keep it as simple as possible... And with an eco-friendly leaning. Trails will not be meant to compete with the more serious mtb-focused trail offerings. It's just meant to be an inexpensive place where you can come with your family or friends and kind of camp out and ride/hike as you please. There are a few places in the US and Canada that are doing something similar. Here's what the abodes offered may look like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) And here's a really cool coincidence... I was speaking to my sister about this project and she reminded me of a place my parents would take us when we were kids that was something just like this... A place called Hardware Gap in Jamaica... Specifically, Holywell Recreational Park. It was around 4,000 feet in the mountains above Kingston, and had maybe a dozen log cabins of various sizes that you could rent. What great memories... Kids between the ages of 6 and 11 let loose in a mountain environment. Of course there were no bears, wolves, or poisonous snakes to worry about. But there were cliffs you could fall off of, and miles of trails you could get lost on. It was pretty cool, even went up there as teenagers with other friends. Here's a photo of the place... Edited April 14, 2020 by RidingAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jbn999 Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Speaking of low acreage trail systems, have there ever been any conversations with the city over their parkland off the south Walnut Creek trail? 200+ acres of park and utility easements, 100 ft. of elevation change, pre-built return trails from phase 1 and phase 3 of the SWCT, plus easy access from Gus Garcia Middle School might make after school programs a selling point when all the craziness is over. The city marked out the farm fields on the east side of the paved trail for a sports complex development next to the Austin Tennis Center. Everything else looks unplanned so far. Considering other urban bike parks - Valmont in Boulder is on 40 acres, Duthie Hill in Issaquah is on 120, and Bentonville's Coler is on 400, it seems like there might be ample space for trail development. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAmI Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 2 hours ago, HoneyBadger said: Try riding it for more than five minutes...if you do you'll find there's multiple types of berms, rock gardens, jumps, wall rides, flat bridges, table top bridges, natural wood features, rollers, a flow section, drops, flat turns, insloped turns, creek crossings, hand-build sections, machine build sections etc. etc. I'd say it's not very repetitious...love to know another 3 mile section at Brushy that has as much variation? I've ridden it all the way through; it's the epitome of trying to put too much trail into one area despite all the things you listed. Those things don't make up for what I don't like about it. And I'm not trying to put anyone's work down, either; I just don't like the trail. "It's not you; it's me." I know it's hard for builders to not take when someone dislikes their work personally. I've been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 1 minute ago, WhoAmI said: "It's not you; it's me." George Costanza... Just watched the episode a few days ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) just for giggles, I used to ride these three trails near Atlanta. They were a short distance from one another and each consisted of areas less than a city block in area. I could easily put together a 15+ mile ride on dirt here, but the trails were woven together so tight it was like a Pacman game. it was in an industrial area with very little park space anywhere nearby, so whoever created these trails was just making due with whatever land they could. Strava heatmap screenshots: Edited April 14, 2020 by mack_turtle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoAmI Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 1 minute ago, mack_turtle said: just for giggles, I used to ride these three trails near Atlanta. Was that in Cobb County? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack_turtle Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, WhoAmI said: Was that in Cobb County? I think it's Dekalb, the site is just a few miles west of Stone Mountain. Tucker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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