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On 6/17/2020 at 9:26 AM, Barry said:

Yes. One of those suggestions is definitely wrong.

 

Wrong, Barry?  If I never crash and can massacre a corner on this loose over hard shit, does that make me wrong? That back tire is everything. 

 

On 6/17/2020 at 8:54 AM, ATXZJ said:

Had to overcome that fear and put as much weight as I could on the front tire when things got weird. Totally counterintuitive to lead head first into the danger but it works. Youre basically  in a position weighting the front like you're doing pushups on your bars. 

 

Wow, maybe I don't have the chops ATXZJ and Barry do, but I'd never "put as much weight as I could on the front tire when things got weird". That's ridiculous. And it doesn't help the OP (see below):

 

On 6/16/2020 at 7:43 PM, mack_turtle said:

riding south Austin stuff, I find a lot of twisty and relatively flat trails. I enjoy this stuff, but I find myself slowing down a lot for the flat turns (no berms, that's a different story) because I can feel my front tire starting to wash out if I take them too fast. I am trying to narrow down what I can do to improve my confidence because breaking is a real buzzkill. a few limiting factors all contribute to this, some of which are beyond my control:

  • trails are just dry and dusty. nothing is going to stay sure-footed after a certain point when the dirt is loose
  • tires over-inflated. I stopped and dropped my pressure quite a bit mid-ride. I think I had it in the low 20s when I started. 29mm inner width rim with a 2.4 tire.
  • suspension too stiff could also be a factor. I have not yet mastered the perfect fork setup (hardtail, so no rear squish to worry about)
  • not enough tread wrap on this tire for the rim width. Bontrager XR-4 tire. or there's not enough sharp tread left on this tire. anyone have an opinion to share on that as a front tire?
  • poor body positioning/ I just suck. my bike has a pretty compact fit. I don't like that "in the bike" feeling as a ex-BMX guy who likes to bunnyhop stuff. I would think that the relatively steep HTA and short reach of this bike would make it easy to keep weight on the front tire.

 

Keep that weight on the back tire, seat down and lean back when you turn. The foot positioning is down on the outside of the turn and foot up and ready go down on the inside. Practice this. We are talking trail riding right? Not XC or roadie. Learn to love that back wheel and you'll never wash out again. 

 

BTW, teaching proper technique on the Internet is not how we learn 😄

Edited by Michael Bevilacqua
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FWIW: I am starting to have much better results by leaning forward a bit more to dig the front tire into the ground as I corner. It is probably different for everyone on their individual bike. My bike has a heavy rear weight bias, so I have to work to push that front end down.

If I keep the weight on the rear tire, the front will go off and do it's own thing.

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8 hours ago, Michael Bevilacqua said:

 

Wrong, Barry?  If I never crash and can massacre a corner on this loose over hard shit, does that make me wrong? That back tire is everything. 

Wow, maybe I don't have the chops ATXZJ and Barry do, but I'd never "put as much weight as I could on the front tire when things got weird". That's ridiculous. And it doesn't help the OP (see below):Keep that weight on the back tire, seat down and lean back when you turn. The foot positioning is down on the outside of the turn and foot up and ready go down on the inside. Practice this. We are talking trail riding right? Not XC or roadie. Learn to love that back wheel and you'll never wash out again. BTW, teaching proper technique on the Internet is not how we learn 😄

 

I think you are probably wrong here, but maybe you also arent paying enough attention to what you are actually doing. As you enter the corner you weight your front wheel. As you exit the corner your front is in the direction you want to go and your rear is turned, so you can shift weight to your rear. So maybe that is what you are feeling.  But entering the turn there is no way you should weight your back wheel, you will wash out your front which is catastrophic. Washing out your rear is no big deal.

 

 

Quote

For me it always helps to put much more weight over the front so that my front wheel won’t wash out, like on an open grass corner for example.

Braking points is something that really shouldn’t be underestimated. When I rode my 29er for the first time I realized that I’m often pulling the brakes too late into the corner. As a result, I couldn’t lean in properly and didn’t go around corners well. Then I ‘relearned’ that I ideally had to be done with braking before the corner lean in and push or do a pedal stroke at the apex of the corner. That works a treat for me when I get it done properly!

Raphaela Richter

Quote

Don’t hang your butt over the rear wheel. Steep or flat, if you’re hanging off the back of the bike you’re not going to get around the corner. Stay centered and keep weight on the front wheel so that it can guide you around the turn.

Owen Franssen, Emerald MTB

Quote

Symmetrical Platform MTBs like to be ridden from the center (neutral position). A Mixed Wheel platform enables a rider to free up their body. As a result, we can position ourselves above front wheel/ front hub when entering corners and move towards rear wheel when exiting.

This enables the front wheel to dig in and track while enabling the smaller rear wheel to simply follow.

Less gyroscope = less force vectors that are being applied to the front wheel resulting in a minimal “push” effect (as compared to the symmetrical platform).

Mike Vidovich, Mullet Cycles co-founder

Quote

Balance the weight, make sure your front wheel has weight to get traction to pull through. Then take the chance like a jump and fully commit. It’s like a jump, just sideways instead.

Julie Baird, Specialized enduro athlete

 

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Article says about what I expected. Try to keep weight balanced on both with a lean toward the front end so you don't wash out. As someone said above, washing out the front is almost a guaranteed crash, you need weight there for grip and tracking purposes. Washing out the back is no big deal and actually a lot of fun!  I sometimes try to get my back wheel sliding and back into some turns. It's damn fun getting that rear end sliding around a corner!

It's hard to do on an MTB without a motor so I end up using the brake to get the skid started. I haven't been been able to fully weight the front and lighten up the back enough to get it sliding on pedal power alone like I would on a motorcycle where I just goose the throttle in a turn to spin up the back end. 

Edited by quixoft
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12 hours ago, Michael Bevilacqua said:

 

 

 

 

Wow, maybe I don't have the chops ATXZJ and Barry do, but I'd never "put as much weight as I could on the front tire when things got weird". That's ridiculous. 😄

Never claimed to have chops. 

If you come into a turn hot and dont weight the front, and instead weight the back, you're gonna tomahawk off the trail and get hurt. Most of these CTX trails are uber dry hardpack that takes a lot of weighting to get the front to dig in. Scree? All bets are off and I just stay balanced like im driving on ice.

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4 hours ago, crazyt said:

I think you are probably wrong here, but maybe you also arent paying enough attention to what you are actually doing. As you enter the corner you weight your front wheel.

As I enter ANY corner I'm pulling up and putting my weight on the inside of my back tire. Always. Period.

Again, I'm wrong? Heh.

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34 minutes ago, ATXZJ said:

If you come into a turn hot and dont weight the front, and instead weight the back, you're gonna tomahawk off the trail and get hurt

I'm not talking about balance here. Riding one wheel at 18-20 mph over a flat loose cheese grater on solid stone is not safe. Use both wheels and slow the hell down. I'm talking about technique. When "I" turn, I use pedal force and momentum on that back tire like a fucker. The front tire is nothing more than the back tire's guide in that technique. And let's mention pre-load on an open rear suspension. Before I hit that corner I'm as low as possible as moving my body upward as I exit the turn.

Again, this isn't something to be taught on some forum.

Saying I'm wrong? Fuck off.

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4 minutes ago, Michael Bevilacqua said:

I'm fine. How are you?  Again, wrong? Am I?

According to the article where racers and expert riders discuss it as well as everything I've been taught by motorcycle racers and instructors, yes. You need weight on the front. I've had a light front end going into a turn at 120mph. It didn't turn out well and it was 100 percent because I was too far back on the bike and not enough grip on the front. Luckily that only causes a low side and the only damage was torn up leathers and frame sliders.

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6 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

FWIW: I am starting to have much better results by leaning forward a bit more to dig the front tire into the ground as I corner. It is probably different for everyone on their individual bike. My bike has a heavy rear weight bias, so I have to work to push that front end down.

If I keep the weight on the rear tire, the front will go off and do it's own thing

All bikes are heavier in the rear. It's a good thingTM.  We don't want a heavy front.  When we bomb a hill we want to learn back and balance our way out of it. With our legs. Not our arms.

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15 minutes ago, Michael Bevilacqua said:

All bikes are heavier in the rear. It's a good thingTM.  We don't want a heavy front.  When we bomb a hill we want to learn back and balance our way out of it. With our legs. Not our arms.

Bombing downhill is completely different than cornering. Do you also weight the back going uphill? 

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2 hours ago, quixoft said:

Bombing downhill is completely different than cornering. Do you also weight the back going uphill? 

 

2 hours ago, Michael Bevilacqua said:

No, it's not. Cornering is the same up or down. Over loose or hard. It's rear wheel or face in the ground.

You're both pretty!

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4 hours ago, spicewookie said:

Just build more berms. This argument is getting ridiculous. 

More berms!  ++

Less argument!  ++

 

But I can't change physics 😞   If I could, I'd happily do push ups on my handle bar and front tire. I'm actually stronger in my upper body in that area. My very long term experience is that results in face plants. Maybe I need to invest in $400 magic underwear that some of these people use?

My reality is that I do pull ups while leaning back and peddling. It always works. No matter what.


 

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As I pointed out earlier with the Dirt Bike example... The front tire needs to be weighted or you no turn so good. This is a difficult finesse on a MTB where your inputs from you body to the bike are much more limited compared to on a motorcycle. Maybe you don't even notice that you are doing that, especially have such good upper body strength. That being said, yes, you can't change the laws of physics and since F = μN the more weight (N) you apply the more traction you get (F) for any given surface available traction (μ). Berms work because they increase N by putting it in a direction that compliments the angle of the bike during a turn. The is the same reason that off camber trails feel sketch, you are loosing traction because your bike is at an angle to the trail bed. 

 

BTW, @spicewookie This would have come from the mouth of Fish Lover if you hadn't taken the screen name during the transition....

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1 hour ago, Michael Bevilacqua said:

Yes. And on the front tire, you get no benefit unless you have magic $400 team sponsored undies so I'm told by the people saying I'm wrong.

If the front tire provides no benefit, why aren't you riding a unicycle around the trails?

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