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2 hours ago, The Tip said:

Please stop having fun while riding. I am offended. We all know that the reason we ride is to suffer.

But seriously, this "my hard tail makes me get better" mantra I don't understand. I guess I don't understand because I don't race in competitions. I want to get better of course, just so I can ride a more varied assortment of trail, but I'll work on getting better on my FS so that I can have "fun" while doing so.

Pretty much every summer I end up traveling to Europe, and when I rent a car it almost always has a standard transmission. It makes me more aware of how I am driving. When I get home I realize what a slug I am, paying far less attention to my driving.

I don't race, I don't have it in me. But I find that when I got my latest FS bike, my skills basically flattened out or even regressed (I was more skilled on a 26" FS than a 29" FS.) I am not opposed to people having fun. Fun to me is being able to better clear a feature using my own skills and body vs. using the bike. I will ride the greenbelt for a few weeks on the SS, then hit it on the FS and it is like a shot of meth (I am assuming) because things I was just...about...to...clear on the SS get plowed over. There is fun to that. Variety is the spice of life. When your bike overrules all of the trails, where is the fun. At that point it is like being a drone pilot in a trailer 2000 miles away vs. being a pilot "in" the battle. FS mails it in. SS makes you work for it. Both are rewarding.

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1 hour ago, throet said:

But what skills specifically are you using on your hard tail when you aren't "motoring" through something or when you're cranking hard to get up a climb? More specifically, what "poor bike handling skills" are developed if you learn those same skills on a FS? That is the point I was challenging. As Cafeend mentioned, maybe you pay more attention to line choice. I can accept that, but I don't agree that you won't learn proper line choice by progressing your skills on an FS. You should choose different lines based on the bike you're on and based on your own skill level, but what's wrong with that? I'm always seeking out more challenging lines on my rides to help build more skills.

When I look across the spectrum of what are considered essential skills - balance, body position, trackstanding, cornering, braking, looking ahead / line choice, descending, climbing, ratcheting, pumping, punching, manualing, bunny hopping, rear wheel lift and pivot,  etc, - I'm just not getting where any of these would be developed poorly because you're learning on an FS vs HT. I believe that probably 80% of the amateurs who believe they are skilled mountain bikers probably aren't, and instead use various methods of compensating for poor skills, whether they learned on an HT or a FS. I'm only 4 years into progressing my skills, and I'm doing it almost exclusively on an FS. When I do decide to ride my HT, I use those same skills and am amazed by the stuff I can do in tech terrain on an XC HT with steep head angle. I've got a long way to go in my progression, but I'm absolutely confident that I'm not developing bad habits solely because I choose to progress on an FS.  

On my FS I can be sloppy, not pay attention to the line. Not pay attention to my feet, my body, not have to move my body. I can be sitting down vs. standing. On my SS I have to pay attention, read the environment and "become one with the trail". Otherwise you spend all day off the bike.

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1 hour ago, Ridenfool said:

Full Suspension is easier, no shit. So is 29 and 27.5, 1x11, the list goes on. This "easier" technology allows the rider to focus on developing other skills BECAUSE they aren't having to compensate for the shortcomings of a hardtail, fixie, singlespeed, blah, blah, blah.

Sure, I get how riding these less advanced technologies is a challenge (century old tech), and I'm all for people pursuing challenges, it builds character. That's how I think of the people I see riding bikes like that. Good for them!

The fact remains how skills can be developed on any bike. Some bikes these skills are developed because you have to. Others you might develop a skill on because you want to. Adding skill and technique are necessary to improve the riding experience. This is more about the rider than it is about the bike.

See my experience above. I don't think anyone is saying that starting on a FS literally and directly creates a bad rider, and you can learn skills on any bike, but FS can mask the need for some skills; a FS is more forgiving of mistakes, thus potentially leading to a complacent and lazy rider and allowing for bad habits to develop (I've been there). Riding a hardtail forces me to focus on body position, movements, etc, and it makes for an even smoother, faster, more effective ride when I get on my FS; it becomes second nature by necessity, and this translates to my FS.

I can make a run down a given rough, technical black trail on my 6" bike with elbows and knees locked, weight on my hands, looking at my front wheel the whole way, and still make it to the bottom without incident, but if I take the same approach to the same trail on my HT, I'd be stopped in my tracks by the first rock garden, and likely launched OTB on a regular basis. I will be forced to apply specific skills to have a graceful, fluid ride down the mountain on the HT, and when I apply those same skills to my FS, I'll have an even faster, safer ride, and make fewer mistakes. Sure, I can learn those skills on the FS without the HT, but I'll also be more likely to get lazy, too, letting the bike cover my mistakes instead (again, been there). It's easier to learn (and maintain) with tools that give you a heightened awareness and feel for the need of what you are learning.
 

Edited by gotdurt
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The most important thing to improve is smooth flow down the trail. Regardless of speed. Regardless of technicality. The skills and techniques, as folks have attested to, apply to both bikes. On FS you may not "need" some specific skill, but it doesn't prevent you from learning it.

"Being forced to" on the unsuspended frames sounds a lot like the stereotypical Catholic School nun :classic_angry: who is always ready to whack you across the fingers with the ruler in order to teach you something. 😱

There is no doubt in my mind that those riding hardtails have to focus a lot more in order to navigate the same trail than a FS rider will need to.  I can also understand how riding one of those bikes can raise awareness to alternate lines, obstacle avoidance, and scanning ahead for the features that will be more of an issue for that rider it they want to be smooth through that section. With that knowledge the same rider can take those lines with the FS and often realize an improvement in smoothness and flow too. The rider on the FS can do that anyway, without riding a bike with no or only front suspension.

It is wonderful that riders can choose to go to the school of hard knocks, or, to the school of this bike rocks to work on their lessons. 😎 Either way, there will be a test that includes both multiple choice and practical elements.

 

Edited by Ridenfool
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Looks like Shinerider struck a nerve!

These are all generalizations people! Of course you can get technical chops riding a FS. OF COURSE you can learn to "flow" over centex gnar while exclusively riding your #enduro sled. No one is saying that it isn't possible.

I for one after learning how to ride in Austin on a 26er hardtail and continuing to do so for years, finally got a FS. After a year of only riding my blur, I get back on the hardtail and ride WC. It sucked...or more accurately, I SUCKED. I had forgotten how to weight and unweight each wheel when rolling over whatever obstacle I had gotten too lazy to find a line around. I didn't even finish the ride. I know that if I worked hard I could get those skills back while still riding my FS but lets face it...I have no time for that. Someday hopefully I'll have time. And when that day comes, I'll be hammering my hardtail to beat those skills back in to me.

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14 hours ago, Ridenfool said:

"Being forced to" on the unsuspended frames sounds a lot like the stereotypical Catholic School nun :classic_angry: who is always ready to whack you across the fingers with the ruler in order to teach you something. 😱

 

Yeah, I was stuck going to catholic school and Sister Anne Stephanie was my high school English teacher. And she hammered home grammar and diagramming sentences. I thought I was going to die and that it was the worst thing to spend my time doing. 

Fast forward 35 years into the future and I was in marketing. I was an industry analyst. I was writing articles in national technology and business publications. When I submitted something to my editor he would always comment on my work vs. the other analysts. Because I understood how grammar worked.

Apply that to riding and a HT SS is like a nun, helping reinforce how things should work and keeping you from being lazy. This is why I appreciate having multiple bikes to ride. You learn from all of these.

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I don't know. I ride my hardtail pretty much the same way I ride my FS. My back isn't really an issue with the hardtail as much as my legs. The hardtail works the legs a lot more due to them being your rear suspension. In actuality I get more back pain on my FS probably due to the fact I spend more time on the saddle. I think the type of hardtail you ride may have some bearing on skills. Steep geo vs slack geo. My hardtail is classified as all mountain it has a slack head angle 66*, Short chain stays sub 17"and low BB sub 12", 29" wheels 140mm fork. I guess that's why I don't really notice much difference between my HT and FS. It's basically a hard tail version of my FS. I bash through chunk on it pretty much the same as my FS. I will say I can do more miles on my FS than on my HT. Now back to the OP. Like people have said don't do any upgrades if it's a basic entry level HT. From what you posted it sounds like it will be a little while before going to FS might happen. If you're considering a FS bike get some demo time on 4 or 5 bikes you might be considering and go from there. Keep in mind the more bikes you demo the more confusing your choice will be. Do some research and choose the ones that will fit your riding style and terrain best. Any of the new FS bikes out there are all pretty good there's not really any that would be considered bad bikes. You're getting into this sport at a good time, most of the issues people had with FS bikes years ago have gone away the suspensions are much better as is the geo. It used to be anything that had more then 120mm rear travel was a slug to pedal around the trails not so much the case anymore.

 

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9 hours ago, Teamsloan said:

Looks like Shinerider struck a nerve!

These are all generalizations people! Of course you can get technical chops riding a FS. OF COURSE you can learn to "flow" over centex gnar while exclusively riding your #enduro sled. No one is saying that it isn't possible.

I for one after learning how to ride in Austin on a 26er hardtail and continuing to do so for years, finally got a FS. After a year of only riding my blur, I get back on the hardtail and ride WC. It sucked...or more accurately, I SUCKED. I had forgotten how to weight and unweight each wheel when rolling over whatever obstacle I had gotten too lazy to find a line around. I didn't even finish the ride. I know that if I worked hard I could get those skills back while still riding my FS but lets face it...I have no time for that. Someday hopefully I'll have time. And when that day comes, I'll be hammering my hardtail to beat those skills back in to me.

I wouldn't say he struck a nerve. I just think that stating that "full suspension leads to poor bike handling skills especially right off the bat" needed to be further dissected and better understood. Through all of the subsequent comments, I think has come greater clarity. What I'm hearing is that some people who learned on HT or who ride both HT and FS, tend to get lazy riding their FS, letting their bike take over what they should be paying more attention to. That is a fair perspective I believe. For others who ride both, that has not necessarily been the case.

I think it's important as well for the OP, who is new to the sport, to understand that this forum and mojo before it are LOADED with opinions. He might be getting opinions from somebody who has been riding 20+ years and still can't do a proper bunny hop or manual, or he might be getting opinions from somebody who is Austin's equivalent of Jeff Kendall-Weed. We also don't know whether the OP is trying to emulate Nino Schurter or Bernhard Kerr or something in between, which might help in making bike recommendations. As Chief points out above, there are other factors that are perhaps more important when choosing a bike than whether it is FS or HT. When you can have both, that is even better. 

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2 hours ago, AustinBike said:

Yeah, I was stuck going to catholic school and Sister Anne Stephanie was my high school English teacher. And she hammered home grammar and diagramming sentences. I thought I was going to die and that it was the worst thing to spend my time doing. 

Fast forward 35 years into the future and I was in marketing. I was an industry analyst. I was writing articles in national technology and business publications. When I submitted something to my editor he would always comment on my work vs. the other analysts. Because I understood how grammar worked.

Apply that to riding and a HT SS is like a nun, helping reinforce how things should work and keeping you from being lazy. This is why I appreciate having multiple bikes to ride. You learn from all of these.

I went to public school where I regularly cut classes, never did my homework, got suspended and eventually expelled / reinstated. I somehow managed to clear enough summer school classes to graduate, probably with a D average. After spending 3 years in military service, and eventually going on to college, I chose to learn proper grammar on my own, which helped me excel both at college and in my professional career. Different strokes for different folks.

I do believe however that anybody who didn't learn to drive on a three-on-the-tree with drum brakes has poor driving skills. :classic_wacko: 

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And I believe that anyone that did not take driver's ed in Chicago in the winter also has poor driving skills 😉

 

The reality is that it is all about being open to learn, and that was my point on the FS - if you never had to ride a HT (especially in places like city park) you missed out on some important life lessons.

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7 minutes ago, AustinBike said:

And I believe that anyone that did not take driver's ed in Chicago in the winter also has poor driving skills 😉

 

The reality is that it is all about being open to learn, and that was my point on the FS - if you never had to ride a HT (especially in places like city park) you missed out on some important life lessons.

Drivers ed in the northern states IS called the winter:classic_laugh:

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Spent more than enough time behind the wheel of my share of death wagons. 4 wheel drums in the rain, stuck carbs, points, bias ply tires, fires, just absolute garbage, all of it.  Learning to drive those cars on the edge gave me more intuition into where the limits were and recognizing the feedback the machine was giving me.

I built and raced cars in my 20s and started out overly aggressive, slow, and hard on parts. As time went on i used what i'd learned from driving those aforementioned deathwagons to improve my times on the track. It did take a while for me to learn that smooth=fast.  

I'm applying the same methodology to MTB. I thought i was fast just monster trucking over everything, but all i was doing was beating myself and my bike up while the person in front of me pulled away. Riding a HT or cross bike on trails made me pick better lines and look further down the trail than my front wheel. It also taught me to use the feedback the bike was giving to ride smarter not harder. The end result was more time on the trail riding rather than recovering. This carried over into the confidence when i'm on a full suspension bike to let go of the brakes and get into the flow. Im able to ride blind faster now than i had on trails id ridden a dozen times prior. 

Do i race MTB? No

Am i "fast"? Probably not. 

Do i have fun when riding? Absolutely!

 

Keep your HT and buy a full suspension when time/money allows for a solid purchase

 

 

Edited by ATXZJ
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On 10/5/2018 at 6:34 AM, tomreece said:

I'm new to MTB and am already addicted. My first bike is a Specialized Rockhopper. I've ridden it 450 miles so far and I like it a lot even though it's entry level.

I am trying to avoid upgrade-itis but I often consider the following 3 options:

  1. Upgrade the Rockhopper. I've looked at a new fork, a dropper, and going 1x. However, most things I read online advise against upgrading such a cheap bike.
  2. Buy a nicer hardtail like a Trek Roscoe 8 that caught my eye the last time I was in the shop. The nicer components (fork, dropper, 1x) come with the bike.
  3. Buy a full suspension. It seems like everyone else has this. The problem is.. which one. It's hard to fathom spending so much money on a bicycle. Before I bought mine, I thought $700 was a lot...ohh how naive I was.

No matter what, I am riding the Rockhopper until the end of the year and possibly into next year. Until then, I've set in my head that I will not upgrade anything unless it breaks.

What do you guys think of my rambling?

the bike is cheap because of the parts. Frames are not that big of a deal if they have the geometry that works for you. If you upgrade the parts you can move them over to a new bike anyway. Even then cheap parts are often durable, just heavy. The fork and a dropper would be the main things to upgrade. I like full suspension because it lets me be lazy. But  I also have a hardtail too. 

I had a terrible freebie bike. I committed to riding that 10 times before buying a new bike. At 450 miles it seems like you are committed to the sport so if you get a more expensive bike you would ride it. The only time an expensive bike is not worth it is if you never ride it and end up selling it in like new condition.

 

Regarding the thread above of hardtail vs FS. For me they ride the same except on the hardtail I have to stand a lot more because any rough terrain is uncomfortable. On the FS I get to sit a lot more. The hardtail is my backup bike and I also like it because it is one less complicated thing to maintain on the bike.

I do feel a big difference in 29 vs 26 though. With a 29 you can just ride over all the rocks without having to do anything with the front. With a 26 you have to constantly work the front and pick your lines.  So all the people that are saying FS is like cheating should go back to their single speed 26" and really have to work.

 

 

 

Edited by crazyt
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2 minutes ago, Yosmithy said:

This thread is awesome, I had no idea I could blame all my bad habits on the fact I'm riding a FS bike. Hell, I might start a few more bad habits now that I know it's all related to the bike I'm riding.

Between the FS and being the son of an Aggie I'm covered for all transgressions.

Edited by Ridenfool
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To the OP, what do you not like about your current bike? If the geometry doesn't work well for you, no amount of upgrades will help. If you like the "feel" of it on the trail, then there's no harm in a few fun upgrades. Given the level of components that it likely has, you can probably lighten it up quite a bit with cheap/used aftermarket stuff.

A set of wheels from Craigslist might run you $150-$300 and could change how fast it accelerates for you, how heavy it feels. 

Tires can make or break a bike. As can converting to tubeless. 

Forks are a bit more questionable as an upgrade since a good one is expensive and you might not be able to use it on your next bike. On the other hand, if your current fork is boat anchor heavy and has crap damping and adjustability, then a fork could be a huge improvement. Again, a used CL find could be key here. 

Going 1x could be pretty cheap if you just throw on a narrow-wide chain ring. I honestly don't think that "improves" the way a bike rides that much. Plus if you're still getting into shape, that granny ring can be the difference between staying out a bit longer and feeling so tuckered that you've got to quit early.

Weigh your seat, seatpost, stem and bars. If you've got reasonably light components, and they feel good, just leave them. If your seat weight is way higher (say, 150 grams more) than a $60 or $70 seat, and it isn't comfortable, that might be a good upgrade. You *can* move that to a new bike. 

Droppers are pretty damned pricey but there are a few cheaper ones that are getting good reviews. GIven that you might not be able to use it on a future bike, or that a future bike will likely have one already... I'd be cautious with buying a dropper.

Spend some time tuning your cockpit, your air pressure and certainly your fork, if it has any adjustability. Work on manuals and drops, and going up ledges and across rock gardens. Pick something that kicks your ass and session it. Try all sorts of stuff. YouTube some how-tos. Go back and kick that things ass. 

Have fun!

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11 hours ago, throet said:

He might be getting opinions from somebody who has been riding 20+ years and still can't do a proper bunny hop or manual...

Dang, still can't manual. But I can wheelie for about 50ft on a good day! 😛

I did the EB 2.3 times all on my pure XC racing oriented Scott Scale Carbon. 24lbs of twitchy carbon with 26 inch wheels. Over the years I put on the thickest grips I could find, converted it to 1x9 with a bashring, traded out the wheels for trail bike ready Mavic 819's and the widest tires that would fit between the chainstays. That race bike was ridden on trails it was never designed to ride. It was a great teacher.

So, there is something to upgrading what you have to suit your purposes. I just don't advocate for dropping much cash on it in the process. Frankenbike and Craiglist/FB marketplace is your friend.

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On 10/7/2018 at 11:54 AM, Cafeend said:

So OP, are you confused yet?

I've seen these conversations elsewhere. It's interesting how polarizing it can be.

 

16 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

To the OP, what do you not like about your current bike?

Things I don't like about my current bike:

  • Weight
  • Extra components that I don't use. For example, I don't need the front gears. The rear provides me with enough range.
  • Noise. The thing rattles around quite a bit. It doesn't have that "solid" feel that quality things tend to have. This could all be in my head because I can't describe it well and I've never ridden anything else on the trails.

I am fortunate enough to be able to afford any bike and that is part of the problem. I feel that I need to put myself through the ringer to earn the nicer bikes. I am an indecisive and frugal person. You should see me picking out a new deodorant. My wife hates shopping with me.

This may sound like some stupid artificial constraint, but I think I'll ride the Rockhopper for 1,000 more miles to prove to myself and then purchase a nice FS ride when I hit that milestone.

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6 minutes ago, tomreece said:

 

I don't need the front gears. The rear provides me with enough range.

Get a narrow-wide chainring (~$35) and drop the other rings, front derailleur and front shifter. I did that years ago and swapped a 3X9 for a 1x9. Rode that for a couple years then jumped to a 1x10. 1x9 will cover 90-95% of what you ride here. 

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48 minutes ago, tomreece said:

Things I don't like about my current bike:

  • Weight
  • Extra components that I don't use. For example, I don't need the front gears. The rear provides me with enough range.
  • Noise. The thing rattles around quite a bit. It doesn't have that "solid" feel that quality things tend to have. This could all be in my head because I can't describe it well and I've never ridden anything else on the trails.

 

ride it into the ground as-is. when you really need to replace something, or have some extra $$ to spend deal with it a little at a time.

weight- fork, wheels, and tires might be the best bang for your buck. tires on entry-level bikes can be surprisingly heavy, and all that spinning weight makes the bike feel heavier. cheap forks are heavy! cheap rims can be very heavy and are difficult (nearly impossible sometimes) to convert to tubeless. those three items would likely be a big performance improvement in addition to taking some weight off the bike. keep an eye out for used stuff. use the classified section on this forum too.

you'll end up with a pretty badass bike. however, you'll also spending a lot of money that you will never get back. at some point, you have to cut your losses and buy a different bike. selling weird custom bikes is a losing game. you can keep your old upgraded bike as a secondary bike (obviously many people like riding a FS and a hardtail), or put all the old parts back on it and sell it, keeping the newer parts that you bought for another build.

I know how you feel about frugality. other cyclists hate listening to frugal people like us. my wife hates it even more. the only complete new bikes I have ever purchased were a $300 Redline Monocog (bike shop discount) and my cyclocross bike, which was something like 75% off on clearance for $500. I end up with two nice bikes because I plan carefully and perfect it to my liking, one part at a time, but keep it rideable the whole time.

 

Edited by mack_turtle
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