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I was right about the apocalypse


AustinBike
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On 1/6/2021 at 3:50 PM, AustinBike said:

Yep, they are a double edged sword, they can be used for good or evil.

one other thing we will definitely see is that bandit trails are being listed on trailforks. The combination of that + ebikes is going to mean a lot more traffic on the hard bandit trails. The trails themselves used to be a filter for traffic, shortly that wont be the case. ebike traffic will likely get those trails closed. Ill repost this when it starts to happen.

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Yes, this is my biggest fear. My second biggest fear is that a bro on an bike shredding up a trail is gonna take someone out because they are riding faster and more out of control. Think of it as the Strava factor. Strava had an issue with people racing to get KOMs and at one point a biker killed someone in San Francisco. 

I think Strava has already had a negative impact on the sport, changing the dynamics; ebikes can do that as well.

https://sfist.com/2012/04/11/traffic_video_allegedly_contradicts_cyclists_story_in_deadly_pedestrian_collision_market_castro/

 

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genuine question: do e-bikes make technical trails easier? I can see them making it easier to endure long climbs, but I can't imagine it's easier to clean something like Cheesegrater with help from a motor. I would think the motor would make it heavy enough that wrangling the bike over that terrain would be harder and the motor would be hard to control. yes, I've seen the videos of professionals skillfully riding e-bikes trials-style on rocks, but my question is about the average brap bro who doesn't know better. I'm not worried that e-bikes are going to turn everyone in to Chris Akrigg over night. 

I ask because the question of trail access and exposure of unsanctioned trails we all love could be a problem, but the danger might burn itself out after people realize how difficult it is.

Edited by mack_turtle
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3 hours ago, crazyt said:

one other thing we will definitely see is that bandit trails are being listed on trailforks. The combination of that + ebikes is going to mean a lot more traffic on the hard bandit trails. The trails themselves used to be a filter for traffic, shortly that wont be the case. ebike traffic will likely get those trails closed. Ill repost this when it starts to happen.

As is all too common lately, this topic is one that divides people that have far more in common than different.  Personally, I think it's stupid to imagine that not putting trails on an app like Trailsforks or MTB project is going to prevent them from being discovered.  If you want to find out if a trail is there, it's really as easy as driving there and walking around.  Anyone that wanted to shut down all those bandit trails that might or might not be out there has the ability to discover them RIGHT NOW so that argument doesn't hold water with me. 

The idea that putting trails on maps and e-bikes will bring more traffic to the trails is also one I struggle with.  We ride those trails....Are WE 'traffic'?  This "us" vs. "them" doesn't fly.  We all all cyclists looking for a place to enjoy our passion.  Why shouldn't 'they' get to ride those trails?  

@crazyt - I really hope that you don't ever have to repost this.  We seem to be able to get trails closed just fine without e-bikes or Trailforks.  Maybe we should also look at reposting it when a new trail opens up somewhere because the cycling community is growing?

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1 hour ago, TheX said:

I'm not sure why some people like to put all e-bike riders into one big generalization, and blame them for things they haven't done. We hate it when people do the same to non-e bike MTB'ers.

it is not necessarily about badly behaved people, it is about sheer numbers. If 1/100 bikers can make the climb you limit the population of riders. If anyone with an ebike can make the climb you have greatly expanded the population. You will get more assholes just because you have increased the total number of riders but you also are just increasing the number of asshole riders. When I ride certain trails I might see one other rider. As ebikes become more popular, those trails might become much more popular.  

The climbs are often hard because of the fitness. That allows people who havent developed the fitness to get to the top and bomb down. I predict a lot more injuries/accidents as well.

The one saving grace is that e mountain bikes are very expensive for now.

Edited by crazyt
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I wonder how many mountain bikers are also e-bikers?

 

I have very limited experience, but those e-bikers I have visited with are also regular mountain bikers (maybe a bit long in the tooth) OR are riding with a significant other that benefits from an e-bike.

 

I am actually thinking of getting my wife an e-bike to do social rides with my son & I.  Undoubtedly in short order she would understand the etiquette, just like on a golf course.

 

Is it us vs them or us vs. us?

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2 hours ago, crazyt said:

it is not necessarily about badly behaved people, it is about sheer numbers. If 1/100 bikers can make the climb you limit the population of riders. If anyone with an ebike can make the climb you have greatly expanded the population. You will get more assholes just because you have increased the total number of riders but you also are just increasing the number of asshole riders. When I ride certain trails I might see one other rider. As ebikes become more popular, those trails might become much more popular.  

The climbs are often hard because of the fitness. That allows people who havent developed the fitness to get to the top and bomb down. I predict a lot more injuries/accidents as well.

The one saving grace is that e mountain bikes are very expensive for now.

I don't get this argument at all.  So you want to limit the population of riders on the trail to:

  1. People that know about them
  2. Riders that are skilled enough to get there under their own power and ride down them safely
  3. Riders that are wealthy enough to afford an e-bike

.....and you want to do this so you don't see any other riders on the trails??

Should there be an entrance exam that you have to pass before getting to ride City Park?  I'm not trying to be an ass but I really don't understand.  We could have made the same argument about suspension, gears, tubeless tires, dropper posts, etc.  "As more people put dropper posts on their bikes, more people will start riding all the fun trails."  Anyway, it's neither here nor there.  e-bikes are here and they are not going away.  We can learn how to work them into the biking community so those riders become part of the community (trail work, advocacy, etiquette, etc.) or we can treat them like they don't belong.

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If I may be so bold to quote a good friend of mine, Silverback from the Mojo days, “there are no more decent people than mountain bikers”.  I have to agree with him.  

I LOVE the friendships I have made from different walks of life and different demographics.  It seems that we are all just people in the woods.  The honesty & sincerity  of those friendships.  It is probably what I love most about mountain biking these days.

Cheers,

Shaner

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4 hours ago, Tree Magnet said:

I don't get this argument at all.  So you want to limit the population of riders on the trail to:

  1. People that know about them
  2. Riders that are skilled enough to get there under their own power and ride down them safely
  3. Riders that are wealthy enough to afford an e-bike

.....and you want to do this so you don't see any other riders on the trails??

Should there be an entrance exam that you have to pass before getting to ride City Park?  I'm not trying to be an ass but I really don't understand.  We could have made the same argument about suspension, gears, tubeless tires, dropper posts, etc.  "As more people put dropper posts on their bikes, more people will start riding all the fun trails."  Anyway, it's neither here nor there.  e-bikes are here and they are not going away.  We can learn how to work them into the biking community so those riders become part of the community (trail work, advocacy, etiquette, etc.) or we can treat them like they don't belong.

Im not limiting anything, Im predicting what is going to happen.

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On 1/8/2021 at 3:40 PM, mack_turtle said:

genuine question: do e-bikes make technical trails easier?

I have a little first-hand experience with this (well, second-hand, I guess). I have been on a number of rides with relatively inexperienced (or out of practice) dudes who were riding ebikes. In both cases, being on an ebike didn't make them any more likely to clear (or even attempt) a technical feature. They still got stuck on technical climbs and they still hesitated on technical descents. So, my experiences tell me that an ebike probably isn't going to make it possible for inexperienced riders to suddenly start riding really technical trails. In fact, they might be a hindrance in this situation. If a new rider on an ebike is trying to ride really techy trail, they are going to end up walking their bike a lot. And while that motor really helps on long, grinding uphills, it's really no fun to try to muscle it up a hill or over obstacles.

Now, for an experienced rider I'd say yes, ebikes could make technical trails easier. Technical climbs, that is. Even in Eco mode (which boosts your power by about 10%, I think) the motor may give you just enough to get up and over that root or ledge, or get around that tight switchback where you might have otherwise stalled out. I've attempted a few sections on ebikes and I can say with 100% certainty that an ebike would help me clear certain obstacles or sections that I normally wouldn't be able to clear on my bike.

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1 hour ago, olddbrider said:

I have a little first-hand experience with this (well, second-hand, I guess). I have been on a number of rides with relatively inexperienced (or out of practice) dudes who were riding ebikes. In both cases, being on an ebike didn't make them any more likely to clear (or even attempt) a technical feature. They still got stuck on technical climbs and they still hesitated on technical descents. So, my experiences tell me that an ebike probably isn't going to make it possible for inexperienced riders to suddenly start riding really technical trails. In fact, they might be a hindrance in this situation. If a new rider on an ebike is trying to ride really techy trail, they are going to end up walking their bike a lot. And while that motor really helps on long, grinding uphills, it's really no fun to try to muscle it up a hill or over obstacles.

Now, for an experienced rider I'd say yes, ebikes could make technical trails easier. Technical climbs, that is. Even in Eco mode (which boosts your power by about 10%, I think) the motor may give you just enough to get up and over that root or ledge, or get around that tight switchback where you might have otherwise stalled out. I've attempted a few sections on ebikes and I can say with 100% certainty that an ebike would help me clear certain obstacles or sections that I normally wouldn't be able to clear on my bike.

I agree with this assessment, even though I have never ridden one. Having a bike be 20% heavier but giving you 20% more leverage seems like a bad tradeoff. My steel HT SS is ~22 pounds or so and it was way more nimble than my older FS geared aluminum bike that clocked in around 30 pounds. There are places that I could get up on the SS that I could not on the FS. Of course, bombing down the hill was completely different.

 

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there are a lot of good reasons why a recreational e-mtb is useful and fun. I will keep reminding people, though, that the general embracement of putting a motor on everything is leading toward this:

1090876819_wall-efatpeople.jpg.f2a74c775c59b953c9abd387bea00ae1.jpg

I stand by this assessment. for everyone who is able, HTFU and pedal a bike with the legs God gave ya.

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Hard to believe just how accurate wall-e and idiocracy were^

 

Think @olddbrider nailed it. IMHO, most "beginner" riders that we are theorizing as the majority who are purchasing these e-bike exist with the same fear and sense of self preservation, motor or not. Just because they have electric assist doesn't mean they are going to start sending road gaps on the way back down.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

As an unrepentant hardcore sci-fi nerd, Wall-E stands alone as my all time favorite sci-fi movie. absolutely flawless, funny, and prescient of social and technological change.

Not a scifi guy but Moon was a game changer for me. Definitely had that 60-70s old school vibe that I can appreciate. 

On the E-bike subject. Might rent one for the wife the next time we're doing long rides out of state.

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