Cafeend Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Heck yeah. I totally support them using their deep pockets to more add trails and wood features asap so I can justify a $170/day throwdown.Where are you coming up with $170?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicewookie Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, Cafeend said: Where are you coming up with $170? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Probably from welding. He's high dollar.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cafeend Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Probably from welding. He's high dollar....Btw.. thanks for recommending him to me. He did an amazing job at my house.Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganderson Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I found the critique to be good reading. Is it worth $50 plus gas money yet is what I want to know. How many runs did you get in from when to when? ThanksFor me it was definitely worth the money for a day plus I rented a full face ($15) and bought a shirt ($30 or 35).Lift wait times were a non issue even toward the end of the day the lines moved well and you get plenty of runs.. we could have done a lot more had our mechanical and physical gear held up a bit longer.That said I wouldn’t go too frequently until there’s more variety and the dirt is in better shape.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 10 hours ago, Ridenfool said: Some forward-thinking purveyors of products and/or services might see this as observations and feedback from their customers. For years people riding at Rocky Hill have come to enjoy the trails with the attitude that because they pay for use that someone else should maintain the trails. It has always been a challenge to get volunteers there to help out. Most of RHR's business comes from Houston riders. When the occasional call for volunteer help goes out most who have shown up are coming from Austin. Moral of the story, the largest user group is also the least likely to pitch in to help with maintenance. This is at a place that offers basic trails through the woods, totally unlike Spider Mountain who targets a specific user group with promise of lift access flow trails. With a facility offering this and asking five times the price to ride there compared to other private riding areas, it doesn't seem all that far-fetched to expect that SpiderMtn have in place a plan to keep the trails at some minimum state of repair. I suspect their experience with other similar MTB resorts should pay off, though the trail surface here may be made of different stuff that requires another approach than what has worked for them elsewhere. From personal experience I can whole-heartedly share how taking on the mantle of responsibility by volunteering to maintain trails that others pay to ride will significantly cut into the volunteers' riding time. Though there is much satisfaction to be had from the creative process, and pride to be taken in the work completed, and for those who can Zen out while doing trail maintenance it can be therapeutic. These "complaints" seem valid and based upon observable facts regarding the perception of value from a paying user's perspective and it would be foolish for any business to dismiss them out of hand. My issue with RHR was that they once asked for volunteers to do trail work and then offered nothing in return. They might have offered something later after people complained but I was long gone from that conversation. Yes, if you charge me, you need to maintain the trails. If you ask me to maintain you need to be real clear up front about what I get in return for my work. I do free trail work on free trails, if I do trail work on a paid trail hen I expect they are going to comp a ride or do some5hing for the volunteers. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheX Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 52 minutes ago, AustinBike said: My issue with RHR was that they once asked for volunteers to do trail work and then offered nothing in return. They might have offered something later after people complained but I was long gone from that conversation. Yes, if you charge me, you need to maintain the trails. If you ask me to maintain you need to be real clear up front about what I get in return for my work. I do free trail work on free trails, if I do trail work on a paid trail hen I expect they are going to comp a ride or do some5hing for the volunteers. ^^^^ This is true ^^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Magnet Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Let’s do the math real quick and see how this is going to work. Can $50 per person support a trail crew required to build and maintain enough trail?? Is it going to take volunteers to make this work??To maintain the trails out there they need a full time trail building team of maybe 3 people? Let’s say they pay them $30k per year (no idea). That’s $90k in just trail support. If they get 200 riders per weekend average for roughly half the year, that’s $260k. That’s leaves $170k to pay for all the remaining staff, lift, expenses, taxes, yada, yada. Obviously I have no idea if that’s enough but I can’t ride right now so I’m compelled to type something in about bikes. Damn weather.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamwa Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Cafeend said: Where are you coming up with $170? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk $50 lift ticket $20 gas $100 downhill rental. Shit I left out beer and bbq. Call it $190? (this isn't for me btw, , y'all know I'm too cheap to rent a sled :P but if'in I wanted) Edited February 19, 2019 by Bamwa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, AustinBike said: My issue with RHR was that they once asked for volunteers to do trail work and then offered nothing in return. They might have offered something later after people complained but I was long gone from that conversation. Yes, if you charge me, you need to maintain the trails. If you ask me to maintain you need to be real clear up front about what I get in return for my work. I do free trail work on free trails, if I do trail work on a paid trail hen I expect they are going to comp a ride or do some5hing for the volunteers. I've been at RHR with others at volunteer work days where Grey cooked barbecue, provided beer, and gave volunteers instructions on how to redeem a free day pass next time, all in gratitude for their efforts. My question would be who made the offer? Did anyone bring it up with them after doing the work? This would constitute a conversation, which if it never happened might explain the disappointing outcome. (though there is something to be said about anyone managing something like this taking the steps to assure folks get their due.) If what you relate happened at any venue, I could easily see how getting volunteers back for more would be a hard sell. Nobody likes feeling taken advantage of. I agree that any private enterprise should not depend upon volunteer efforts from their clientele as an ongoing aspect of their business model without offering some sort of compensation such as free access passes or something similar. Edited February 19, 2019 by Ridenfool 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anita Handle Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Flat Rock Ranch charges for access and still garners great volunteer support. They have a standard deal where you ride for free on the day that you work, you get a free day for so many hours and can earn a year pass for another level of volunteer work. I've hit enough hours to earn a year pass before. The Dreissesses are more like family than a business that I'm working with. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Anita Handle said: Flat Rock Ranch charges for access and still garners great volunteer support. They have a standard deal where you ride for free on the day that you work, you get a free day for so many hours and can earn a year pass for another level of volunteer work. I've hit enough hours to earn a year pass before. The Dreissesses are more like family than a business that I'm working with. I was about to add to my post above some praise of Jimmy's attention to detail and being directly involved in all operations as a Sterling example of how it should be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cafeend Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 $50 lift ticket $20 gas $100 downhill rental. Shit I left out beer and bbq. Call it $190? (this isn't for me btw, , y'all know I'm too cheap to rent a sled [emoji14] but if'in I wanted)Touche'I know, you were asking for a friend.And $2.50 for a coffee from Mojo on the way home.Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anita Handle Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 BUT FOR THE RECORD, I'm cool if they don't accept volunteer help with maintaining the safety and integrity of the ski lift... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seths Pool Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 8 hours ago, Anita Handle said: Flat Rock Ranch charges for access and still garners great volunteer support. They have a standard deal where you ride for free on the day that you work, you get a free day for so many hours and can earn a year pass for another level of volunteer work. I've hit enough hours to earn a year pass before. The Dreissesses are more like family than a business that I'm working with. +1 for this. I went out to FRR the weekend befor this year's zombie goat enduro to build trail for kodiak tough and FRR. i stayed out there in a cabin for 3 days straight, digging all day every day that weekend. the next weekend at the enduro event I ran into the owner again, and during our conversation I mentioned to him that I had been there the entire weekend before digging. he waived my camping fee and gave me an annual pass for 2019. it was a nice little surprise! with this being said, I'm happy to trade day passes or whatever at Cat Mtn to anyone who would like to help me dig. FR512 liability waiver still required 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotdurt Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 55 minutes ago, Anita Handle said: BUT FOR THE RECORD, I'm cool if they don't accept volunteer help with maintaining the safety and integrity of the ski lift... That reminds me, Greg and I were really surprised that the chairs didn't have safety bars... seems like a serious liability, especially with kids... then on the last ride up I looked over at a passing chair and saw that they actually do have the bars, so I looked up and there it was... I just assumed that since no one was using them, they weren't there, in fact some parks will pull the bars down for you after you sit down. So, if you take kids, the bars are there, just a little harder to reach than other chairs I've been on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 14 hours ago, Tree Magnet said: Let’s do the math real quick and see how this is going to work. Can $50 per person support a trail crew required to build and maintain enough trail?? Is it going to take volunteers to make this work?? To maintain the trails out there they need a full time trail building team of maybe 3 people? Let’s say they pay them $30k per year (no idea). That’s $90k in just trail support. If they get 200 riders per weekend average for roughly half the year, that’s $260k. That’s leaves $170k to pay for all the remaining staff, lift, expenses, taxes, yada, yada. Obviously I have no idea if that’s enough but I can’t ride right now so I’m compelled to type something in about bikes. Damn weather. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Here is the bottom line on this: If your business requires unpaid work from your customers in order to maintain financial viability, then you don't have a problem with trail work, you have a problem with your business plan. I've talked to dozens of companies that have business plans that include "and then this miracle happens" and that is how they get to profitability down the road. The problem is the miracle never happens. Instead of budgeting the cash for 3 trail builders they could instead start a program where you can do trail work and get free comp passes. 4 hours of building trail gets you a one day pass. This business has high fixed costs, high semi-variable operational costs (i.e. opening the doors and running things even if nobody shows up) and almost non-existent variable costs (i.e. one more riding showing up this weekend literally costs them almost nothing.) With a program like that you could get trails built AND preserve your capital for running the business. But, instead they are trying to sell $200 season passes that ran through mid April. This is a marketing and PR problem, if they had a "trail crew" program in place and were very vocal about it they would be getting positive headlines from the community now. And while you're at it, throw in an occasional "hooky Friday" and open the trails only to the build crews as an added bonus. Make them feel wanted. Way better than tying up capital on building trails today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 13 hours ago, Ridenfool said: I've been at RHR with others at volunteer work days where Grey cooked barbecue, provided beer, and gave volunteers instructions on how to redeem a free day pass next time, all in gratitude for their efforts. My question would be who made the offer? Did anyone bring it up with them after doing the work? This would constitute a conversation, which if it never happened might explain the disappointing outcome. (though there is something to be said about anyone managing something like this taking the steps to assure folks get their due.) If what you relate happened at any venue, I could easily see how getting volunteers back for more would be a hard sell. Nobody likes feeling taken advantage of. I agree that any private enterprise should not depend upon volunteer efforts from their clientele as an ongoing aspect of their business model without offering some sort of compensation such as free access passes or something similar. This was quite some time ago, probably 10+ years ago. I'd have to dig on mojo to find the approximate details and I don't want to have to clean all of the spam off me when I am done. I was planning to go, then dropped when I heard we got nothing, not even a future comp ride. If memory serves correctly, the situation was eventually rectified (not sure if it was before or after the work was done.) My point was that "spend your time helping build the trails you ride" is a compelling value proposition and "spend your time building my trails so I can charge you to ride them" is not as compelling. I would have gladly put in a few hours of trail work in exchange for a 1-day pass (essentially meaning that I work at way less than minimum wage) - may seem like weird personal economics, but in reality it is about principle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlikesbikes Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 So, I watch one spider mountain video and my youtube is flooded with them now. Couple observations: Is recording your ride, particularly with a chest gimbal just the new endrobro thing? Every youtuber seemed to be riding with 2-4 guys also with chest gimbals. Do they travel in packs? Do they each have a channel? People seem to have the same respect for MTB trail ratings as they do on the ski slopes. Sliding over stuff rear brake locked on a double black diamond must be like the guys shaving the tops of moguls on the ski slopes. Itsy Bitsy seems like it would be way more interesting going up. All the footage has me like nah, maybe next year when there is more out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 13 hours ago, Anita Handle said: Flat Rock Ranch charges for access and still garners great volunteer support. They have a standard deal where you ride for free on the day that you work, you get a free day for so many hours and can earn a year pass for another level of volunteer work. I've hit enough hours to earn a year pass before. The Dreissesses are more like family than a business that I'm working with. This is exactly how it should be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotdurt Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Mattlikesbikes said: So, I watch one spider mountain video and my youtube is flooded with them now. Couple observations: Is recording your ride, particularly with a chest gimbal just the new endrobro thing? Every youtuber seemed to be riding with 2-4 guys also with chest gimbals. Do they travel in packs? Do they each have a channel? I record for many reasons: memories (who knows when I'll get back, and we had a good time... and fun crashes!), studying lines and mistakes, catching things you didn't notice while riding, and a preview for those that are interested in going (I look for vids all the time, for this purpose). As for previews, not everyone can relate to a trail by watching a preview at a pro's speed, or someone who is reeeallly slow... and others can; for a given trail, I'll look at faster riders, and riders like me, and learn the various potential lines, hazards, etc. 1 minute ago, Mattlikesbikes said: People seem to have the same respect for MTB trail ratings as they do on the ski slopes. Sliding over stuff rear brake locked on a double black diamond must be like the guys shaving the tops of moguls on the ski slopes Haha, go ride Stinger/Rotor smoke and see how steep it really is (it doesn't look nearly as steep as it is, but sliding is always an indicator)... when it's dry and dusty, you have no choice but to slide; it's either slide or roll, nothing in between... and sooo much fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlikesbikes Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 1 minute ago, gotdurt said: Haha, go ride Stinger/Rotor smoke and see how steep it really is (it doesn't look nearly as steep as it is, but sliding is always an indicator)... when it's dry and dusty, you have no choice but to slide; it's either slide or roll, nothing in between... and sooo much fun. I brake steer like one should so I will clarify, one of the videos showed a guy who clearly should not have gone down Stinger, just based on how many times he was not in control going down and the couple of crashes. JUST like the guys sking the double blacks and just destroying the slope but saying later to the other bros " I ski double black" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mattlikesbikes said: I brake steer like one should so I will clarify, one of the videos showed a guy who clearly should not have gone down Stinger, just based on how many times he was not in control going down and the couple of crashes. JUST like the guys sking the double blacks and just destroying the slope but saying later to the other bros " I ski double black" There is a fine line between "I went down (insert Black trail here)" and "I went down ON (insert Black trail here)." To some it may be one and the same. Edited February 19, 2019 by Ridenfool 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seths Pool Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) guys, why aren't ya'll fighting over who gets to help me dig first?!? its the most fun you've ever had in your life I PROMISE! Edited February 19, 2019 by Seths Pool 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throet Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 6 hours ago, gotdurt said: the bars are there, just a little harder to reach than other chairs I've been on Especially if you have a rotator cuff issue!!! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridenfool Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 4 hours ago, Seths Pool said: guys, why aren't ya'll fighting over who gets to help me dig first?!? its the most fun you've ever had in your life I PROMISE! That can't be true. My buddy Huck Finn told me whitewashing fences was the most fun I'd ever have in my whole life. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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