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Prop A


The Tip
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I'm using this forum to vent on those people that oppose this proposition. A proposition that shouldn't even have to be voted on. Forcing our ridiculous council to insure our safety.

Those opposed to this proposition are using an obvious scare tactic; "If you give all the money to the police then there won't be any left for fire protection." 

Unfortunately the fire fighters union is about to buy into this nonsense. Nonsense because WHY does more money for the police mean denying money for other ESSENTIAL services like the fire department? There are LOTS more, not so essential, places that money could be redirected from.

I did a very quick study of city positions that exist to get an idea of how many NON-essential type jobs there are. 

http://austintexas.gov/hr/jobdesc/job_title_pay.cfm?title=A

There are a multitude of jobs listed on each page. Pages are divided by alphabet. Here are some candidates that possibly could be cut WAY before the fire department's. And these are just from the "E" page. There is a page for every letter of the alphabet.

Employee Relations

Environmental related (27 hourly positions!)

Equal Employment and Housing

Equity and Inclusion department

Exhibit Coordinator. (Must have a BS in art)

Those are just some that jump out, from the E page. I'm not "anti" any of those things. I'm sure that all those departments do stuff that are good (mild eye roll) but I'm also 100% sure that there is a lot of fat that could be trimmed if required to do so to meet budgets.

And don't get me started on why in the hell Soros is donating $500,000 to defeat this issue. Seriously, what the hell?

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

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They are welcome to some of the fifteen fucking grand I pay in property tax, for which I get no perceivable return. I wish I could have a say in where it goes.

Many years ago I worked for the City of Austin. It's astonishing how many well-paid people are just sitting around waiting for their 23 years to be up. Bah humbug - don't get me started.

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23 minutes ago, TAF said:

It's astonishing how many well-paid people are just sitting around waiting for their 23 years to be up. Bah humbug - don't get me started.

Gets so much worse at the state and federal levels. The thing that burns me up are the retire-rehires. Talk about sitting around making your retirement plus, six figures for doing nothing. The way they find to waste taxpayer dollars is insane. Almost none of them would make it more than a month in the private sector.

Another toxic byproduct of this pattern is holding the "younger" people back who trying to move up the ranks.

I'm done with Austin

 

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2 minutes ago, ATXZJ said:

Gets so much worse at the state and federal levels. The thing that burns me up are the retire-rehires. Talk about sitting around making your retirement plus, six figures for doing nothing. The way they find to waste taxpayer dollars is insane. Almost none of them would make it more than a month in the private sector.

Another toxic byproduct of this pattern is holding the "younger" people back who trying to move up the ranks.

I'm done with Austin

 

So very true. I left my appallingly-low paid finance position because I could -- I'd joined the City from the private sector. Every person I worked with had resigned themselves to never ever being able to leave for the private sector. Some were rather jealous, although by now I expect they have hit their 23 years and are busy trying to get re-hired as a consultant.

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First off, I don't even live in Austin and had to look up what Prop A is, but for the sake of argument...

Maybe it's stupid to have a law that ties personnel decisions to a crude ratio of cops to residents. Who came up with the magic 2:1000 ratio, anyway? Talk about a scare tactic. "Oh no! There are a thousand people here and only 1.7 cops. My life is in danger!" This is just a way for cops (and those who represent them) to protect their own interests at a time where many are questioning their effectiveness anyway. 

I guarantee you that there isn't a law on the books proclaiming that there must be a defined number of BS in Art welding Exhibit Coordinators per capita. Maybe if that Exhibit Coordinator was given more help, they could have an exhibit about not doing crimes in the first place. That would reduce the need for more armed police on the streets.

What if future advances in crime fighting reduce the number situations requiring police officers to put themselves in dangerous situation? You're telling me Robocop couldn't handle 1000 residents on his own? 

Before you freak out and call me a commie or something, I'm not saying don't give them the money for training and more staff. I'm just saying that the magic number of 2:1000 is stupid. How could guaranteeing a number of jobs based on another metric that you can't control be a good idea? That seems like a recipe for corruption and greed to thrive. 

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6 minutes ago, notyal said:

This is just a way for cops (and those who represent them) to protect their own interests at a time where many are questioning their effectiveness anyway. 

yup, make everyone clutch their pearls and they withdraw their labor from the job they were already not doing.

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Thank you for "saking" for the argument notyal! Well presented response...for a commie!😉

The 2/1000 is more a less just a number pulled out of a hat by the Save Austin Now people that instigated the petition. But it's based on Texas and national average. The 2/1000 is BELOW both of those averages by the way.

It's just a benchmark to force council's budgeting. And there's not a "defined number of BS in Art welding Exhibit Coordinators per capita" because there isn't a strangely motivated national movement to take money away from that "essential" (laughs into sleeve) service like there is for police departments. 

Part of the proposition will require "add an additional 40 hours of police training each year on topics such as active shooter scenarios, critical thinking, and defensive tactics;" 

THIS actually addresses what is the problem we see with policemen. At least about the bad policemen that have done stupid things that are giving the entire profession a bad reputation.

Anyone that thinks having less policemen is going to help any portion of the population is crazy.

 

Edited by The Tip
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sorry for the snark. I appreciate LE for what they do, when they do it right. I'm over this discussion after all that I have seen over the years. we don't need more cops if they don't do anything and they throw a fit when we call them out for using excessive force. how many cops would be enough?

Edited by mack_turtle
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I think we actually need more cops, with way more comprehensive training & accountability. With that we also need to go back to the community beat cop model. More bodies with a narrower arc of responsibility. They are spread too thin and getting paid too little with ever evaporating benefits. Now cities are taking warm bodies that really have no business serving as an LEO. At this point, Austin is just too expensive for public servants.

I also can't for the life of me understand or support the militarization of our police forces, all the while we are seeing less and less violent crime. I don't want or need drive by policing by some patrolman cosplaying as a swat officer.

Edited by ATXZJ
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Y’all need to really think about what police really should be doing with their time and their money before you go complain about how stuff if allocated.  Shit is fucked up right now.  There has to be a better way to do this.  Next time you are speeding and drive by a $50k police car parked on the road catching speeders think about that ratio.  Also next time you read about someone with psychological issues getting shot or arrested think about whether there is a better way.  I have an uncle who is a cop and I have MTB friends who are cops and I carE and worry about them.  I think a good cop are the best of the best, but just like any profession they are a slice of humanity.  There are things that could be done better with better reallocation of money.  I don’t want highly trained cops dealing with psychosis events, minor dug possession or even traffic citations (bring on the robots!).  I also want the bad apples fired just like in any other profession.  There has to be a better way.  

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There is an easier way to address this problem: accountability.

If someone in APD shoots and kills an unarmed person, the police union pension picks up the tab, not the taxpayers. I am guessing after the second shooting we'd see some serious changes because when someone messes with your pension, suddenly shit gets real.

Let's face it, it's a tough job and it is not getting easier, but how much did Austin pay out in legal settlements over the last 10 years that could have been focused on addressing some of these shortcomings?

The other piece of accountability is in regards to homelessness. We spend tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, combined, on addressing this issue. If this were a business you'd have the CEO asking for a full audit. They'd take the full basket of dollars and figure out what is working and apply more to those areas as well as figure out what is not working and stop spending dollars there. This is not happening. People tell us that we are not being humane to the homeless in our community but the reality is that we are, but the dollars are not being allocated in a way that really helps. There are too many programs and too little accountability so we end up with poor effectiveness.

Also, a third thing, you damn kids need to stay off my lawn.

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I so agree. I forget what homeless "solution" was proposed that I saw, but the money allocated, divided by the number of estimated homeless, came out to something like $100,000 per person. That was on top of everything else being spent on the problem. Yes, a very efficient use of our money (HUGE eyeroll!)

And your point about accountability is right on. What private sector company would allow employees to continue to cause the company massive liability insurance payouts? They would fire the problem employee, retrain the remaining ones so it didn't happen again, and continue on. They wouldn't reduce their work force by 15%, as the company was getting busier by the way, as the solution.

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1 hour ago, AustinBike said:

There is an easier way to address this problem: accountability.

If someone in APD shoots and kills an unarmed person, the police union pension picks up the tab, not the taxpayers. I am guessing after the second shooting we'd see some serious changes because when someone messes with your pension, suddenly shit gets real.

 

The other piece of accountability is in regards to homelessness. We spend tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, combined, on addressing this issue. If this were a business you'd have the CEO asking for a full audit. They'd take the full basket of dollars and figure out what is working and apply more to those areas as well as figure out what is not working and stop spending dollars there. This is not happening. People tell us that we are not being humane to the homeless in our community but the reality is that we are, but the dollars are not being allocated in a way that really helps. There are too many programs and too little accountability so we end up with poor effectiveness.

 

100% this ∆

It should absolutely come out of the pension fund in some way. You'd see a lot of cops crossing the thin blue line and sorting out their own bad apples. The fact that a cop screws up, kills someone and it costs the taxpayers millions of dollars in settlements is insane. That doesn't happen in a vacuum and something gets cut to balance the budget for the payout. Rinse & repeat and we the taxpayers lose out over and over.

Homelessness. That seems to be the get rich scheme in our grift-nation. Billions being spent on "consulting" while little to nothing actually ends up helping people. I always have to remind myself that there's no money in solutions or cures. 

 "the homeless industrial complex"

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/nyregion/jack-brown-homeless-nyc-core-services.html

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The new APD chief Chacon just suspended two officers for not intervening in a case of excessive force. apparently that's never happened. this is a positive change. I'm jaded and I think it's a very small step, but the tides are turning. let's hope there's more of this in our future, then I'll feel good about having more cops around when they do their job and are held accountable when they do it badly.

I don't see why cops get a tax-payer funded pass for misconduct. it's a cultural bias that has overstayed its welcome. if teachers or trash collectors or mail deliverers did stuff that hurt people, they'd be fired almost immediately. the times are a-changing.

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slightly off-topic, but this is why I am skeptical of LE culture in general: https://www.bikelaw.com/2021/10/waller-bike-crash seems like typical cop behavior. (read the whole article!)

it seems mostly like a gang of "good old boys". root that out, and I'll have a reason to "back the blue." LE culture needs to try harder to convince us that this is the exception and not the rule.

Edited by mack_turtle
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Well, before we start bashing on the police, it is *generally* a few bad apples. The problem is that there has not been any accountability regarding cleaning out the bad apples. Don't paint them all with the same broad brush.

That is no different than judging all mountain bikers by the bonewipe who cuts off hikers at high speed or rides with a bluetooth speaker.

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the fact that they refuse to clean out the bad apples says a lot. if you worked in a restaurant where one cook regularly pissed in the soup and everyone saw it happen but there was a "chef's code" that prevented them from saying anything, would you trust that kitchen? no, they should all be fired. if you were on staff at a public school where one of the teachers occasionally punched a child in the face, but all of the other teachers and staff refused to hold that teacher responsible, we'd say the problem is not just one bad actor, but an institution that empowers that person to continue that behavior.

then, of course, that chef and the kitchen staff are probably part of an underground club where they get together in basements to pummel each other for fun and make soap out of human fat.

Edited by mack_turtle
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2 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

where one of the teachers occasionally punched a child in the face

Had a teacher who used to slap me around pretty regularly. Knew better than to tell my Mom though, since I would have just got a double dose from her! 🤣🤣🤣

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4 hours ago, throet said:

Had a teacher who used to slap me around pretty regularly. Knew better than to tell my Mom though, since I would have just got a double dose from her! 🤣🤣🤣

One of my old crazy drafting teachers used to pick on a kid named tony in class. Williams would walk around the class drilling the students with questions about the what/why we were doing and he'd always stop at tony's desk. When he did, we knew it was gonna be a show.  Williams would alternate punching him in the arms until he got the answer right. Tony was slow and would just lock up and hunker down for the abuse. It was kind of a Socratic method mixed with violence 🤣

And yeah, can't remember how many times i got beat up in fight, got beat by the principal and round three when i got home. Man my kids have it good! 

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