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Put on some flats yesterday. Wasnt pretty


larlev

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On 1/8/2019 at 10:17 AM, Seths Pool said:

flats - climbing efficiency sucks, they destroy your legs, your feet can slip/bounce off the pedals, more unnecessary effort/technique to bunny hop or control the rear end of the bike 

Then you are doing it wrong.
These are all arguments from the 90's (I know, I was one of those guys arguing it), by those who haven't had sufficient experience on flats.

climbing efficiency sucks
It has since been proven that clipless actually has no real advantage in efficiency. All kinds of stuff about this online.

they destroy your legs
There has never been evidence of flats destroying legs, in fact, some clipless pedal designs *are* known to damage knees... unless you are talking about pin-shins, but you should see what spd's do to shins (I speak from experience)! Shin protection is an easy fix though, if that scares you.

your feet can slip/bounce off the pedals
Nah, not if you are doing it right. If your weight is properly distributed, pedals weighted, heels down, your feet will stay put. In fact, my feet leave the pedals less now than when I rode clipless. When I first experimented with flats on my squish, I thought there was no way they would work on a hardtail, especially on our rough trails. But, after a few months of riding them, my riding technique naturally changed and these things became 2nd nature (just like learning to ride clipless), so I decided to give them a try on the hardtail... after a few rides, no bouncing, lifting, etc..
Rugger and I went to some popular "unmentionable" trails yesterday, and I took the hardtail since my shock is at Fox. We hit some of the "rowdiest" (gah, I hate that term) descents (and climbs), with not a single bounce or slip.

more unnecessary effort/technique to bunny hop or control the rear end of the bike
Not at all, it's all relative; there is no extra technique, in comparison. Just as one has to learn to ride clipless and develop 2nd nature techniques, you do the same for flats. Bunny hopping wasn't a big deal for me, as I was bunny-hopping on flats as a kid, and controlling the rear is a learned technique, whether on flats or clipless; once it becomes 2nd nature, you don't have to apply any thought or extra effort. After riding flats for a few years, I actually look back on clipless as a cruch that kept me from improving...

After 25 years on clipless and about 5 years on flats, I can do anything on flats that I could "clipped in", and just as well, if not better. Experience, grasshoppah!

I did a quick search, and these came on the 1st page:
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/top-3-clipless-pedal-myths/
http://ipmba.org/blog/comments/should-you-be-riding-flat-pedals
Good article, skip past the first photo if you don't want to read the intro and history on clipless, etc:
https://shouldersofgiants.com/2016/03/01/flat-pedals-vs-clips/
Science!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=395&v=CNedIJBZpgM
From Betterride:
http://betterride.net/blog/2016/mountain-bike-pedals-flat-or-clipped-in/

 

On 1/8/2019 at 10:17 AM, Seths Pool said:

rejecting from clipless pedals is pretty effortless and instantaneous once you have the muscle memory and the brainless technique down.

Same argument applies to flats, see above.

On 1/8/2019 at 10:17 AM, Seths Pool said:

 lack of confidence and lack of commitment causes a lot of crashes in my experiences. hesitation is devastation!

Hmm, this is truth, but I would argue that most are much less likely to hesitate if they aren't clipped in... in my experience with both.

On 1/8/2019 at 10:17 AM, Seths Pool said:

another thing - almost every time ive ever seen anyone get stuck and fall over in clipless pedals - they are riding Shimano SPD.. if you want super easy in & out, lots of float, and pretty bulletproof pedals - get TIMES. the MX4s are a great choice

I agree here; I've ridden about every system made since 1990 (I rode real clips, with straps, before then :classic_tongue:), and settled on spd, until I discovered Time in '02... IMO, it's the only way to go for clipless.

I'm not arguing that everyone should be riding flats, but to say that flats suck with those arguments is, well, a touch ignorant.

Edited by gotdurt
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1 minute ago, gotdurt said:

Then you are doing it wrong.
These are all arguments from the 90's (I know, I was one of those guys arguing it), by those who haven't had sufficient experience on flats.

climbing efficiency sucks
It has since been proven that clipless actually has no real advantage in efficiency. All kinds of stuff about this online.

they destroy your legs
There has never been evidence of flats destroying legs, in fact, some clipless pedal designs *are* known to damage knees... unless you are talking about pin-shins, but you should see what spd's do to shins (I speak from experience)! Shin protection is an easy fix though, if that scares you.

your feet can slip/bounce off the pedals
Nah, not if you are doing it right. If your weight is properly distributed, pedals weighted, heels down, your feet will stay put. In fact, my feet leave the pedals less now than when I rode clipless. When I first experimented with flats on my squish, I thought there was no way they would work on a hardtail, especially on our rough trails. But, after a few months of riding them, my riding technique naturally changed and these things became 2nd nature (just like learning to rid clipless), so I decided to give them a try on the hardtail... after a few rides, no bouncing, lifting, etc..
Rugger and I went to some popular "unmentionable" trails yesterday, and I took the hardtail since my shock is at Fox. We hit some of the "rowdiest" (gah, I hate that term) descents (and climbs), with not a single bounce or slip.

more unnecessary effort/technique to bunny hop or control the rear end of the bike
Not at all, it's all relative; there is no extra technique, in comparison. Just as one has to learn to ride clipless and develop 2nd nature techniques, you do the same for flats. Bunny hopping wasn't a big deal for me, as I was bunny-hopping on flats as a kid, and controlling the rear is a learned technique, whether on flats or clipless; once it becomes 2nd nature, you don't have to apply any thought or extra effort. After riding flats for a few years, I actually look back on clipless as a cruch that kept me from improving...

After 25 years on clipless and about 5 years on flats, I can do anything on flats that I could "clipped in", and just as well, if not better. Experience, grasshoppah!

I did a quick search, and these came on the 1st page:
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/top-3-clipless-pedal-myths/
http://ipmba.org/blog/comments/should-you-be-riding-flat-pedals
Good article, skip past the first photo if you don't want to read the intro and history on clipless, etc:
https://shouldersofgiants.com/2016/03/01/flat-pedals-vs-clips/
Science!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=395&v=CNedIJBZpgM
From Betterride:
http://betterride.net/blog/2016/mountain-bike-pedals-flat-or-clipped-in/

 

Same argument applies to flats, see above.

Hmm, this is truth, but I would argue that most are much less likely to hesitate if they aren't clipped in... in my experience with both.

I agree here; I've ridden about every system made since 1990 (I rode real clips, with straps, before then :classic_tongue:), and settled on spd, until I discovered Time in '02... IMO, it's the only way to go for clipless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(ROLLS EYES)

its an endless debate.... all I'll say more is - come ride, put those superior flat pedals on display and change my mind 😉 

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5 minutes ago, Seths Pool said:

(ROLLS EYES)

its an endless debate.... all I'll say more is - come ride, put those superior flat pedals on display and change my mind 😉 

I can see by the speed with which you replied (I immediately removed the space at the bottom after posting, but it's in your quote) that you didn't even look at my post... you should actually read it first.

Edited by gotdurt
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Seth seems to think that ego plays a factor in this.

I agree with @Gotdirt's assessment that there is nothing conclusively supporting Seth's claims. It is mostly about personal preference, and just because his preference is different doesn't make it accurate for everybody else.

If we were to base such decisions upon Seth's prowess then we'd have to also say how riding clipless results in broken handlebars, frames, and other things. Which wouldn't be any more of a rational argument than the one he has posed.

Edited by Ridenfool
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I ride a hardtail, with a rigid fork most of the time. Flat pedals work fine for me. It took a few rides, but now that I know what to do, Seth's concerns above are 100% nonsense on my bike.

The precieved efficiency gains from riding clipped in were mostly in my head and negated by the additional fun I am having (subjective).

If I can't bunnyhop and control the bike without clipping in, that's because I suck. 😝 if my feet fly off flat pedals, I'll get some shoes and pedals that don't suck or learn a little technique, my lack of which has been hidden by years of riding clipped in.

Edited by mack_turtle
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I recall seeing a video while researching flats that showed a rider trying to climb a slickrock dome and thinking that the flats were keeping him from cleaning it (after several attempts) when his clipped-in friend could.

Then, his clipped-in friend rode the bike with flats up that hill. After that, the rider was able to clean the climb on his bike with flats.

We all play mind-games with ourselves. Some of us know this and look for more repeatable, science-based answers before reaching a conclusion. Some don't.

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1 minute ago, Ridenfool said:

I recall seeing a video while researching flats that showed a rider trying to climb a slickrock dome and thinking that the flats were keeping him from cleaning it (after several attempts) when his clipped-in friend could.

Then, his clipped-in friend rode the bike with flats up that hill. After that, the rider was able to clean the climb on his bike with flats.

We all play mind-games with ourselves. Some of us know this and look for more repeatable, science-based answers before reaching a conclusion. Some don't.

I was just thinking about that video. 

I'm going to give flats a real chance. I am curious if my climbing ability will be hindered.

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55 minutes ago, larlev said:

I'm going to give flats a real chance.

Just like clipless, it takes time to work out the techniques and commit to muscle memory, but once it "clicks", it's fun.

 

55 minutes ago, larlev said:

I am curious if my climbing ability will be hindered.

At first, it'll seem that way, because you'll be expecting it to work the same as clipless, but once you master it, there'll be no difference, other than you'll be able to do it without "help".

Edited by gotdurt
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It's really a matter of preference. I believe you should ride whatever you are comfortable with. I ride my mtb clipped in 95% of the time and clipping out when needed is second nature. I bought my first pair of 737s in 91. I have a pair of Saint pedals I throw on when I take the neighborhood kids to wheelie school.

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For those pro-flats or at least advocating there is no efficiency hit, have you done a spinscan with flats?  Is there data?   Link please.  And don't make me go look for it, you guys are the ones trying to convince us (I'm with Seth), and I'm open minded enough to look at it but I want data, not perception.  I not only prefer clipless for going uphill or on the road, but even for tech sections.

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Just now, AntonioGG said:

I was directing it toward Mack and gotdurt.  I really do want to see data, I'm not just being facetious.

I saw some videos done by GMBN that had some interesting power meter data.  I don't have the links saved unfortunately but they should be searchable.

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19 minutes ago, AntonioGG said:

For those pro-flats or at least advocating there is no efficiency hit, have you done a spinscan with flats?  Is there data?   Link please.  And don't make me go look for it, you guys are the ones trying to convince us (I'm with Seth), and I'm open minded enough to look at it but I want data, not perception.  I not only prefer clipless for going uphill or on the road, but even for tech sections.

I really don't give a fuck. You can't quantify fun. Riding flats is not noticably limiting me in any way but I am still having fun with slightly less pucker factor. I am pro-choice regarding pedals, but I don't base my choices on what will give me a KOM over the other local weekend warriors Freds.

Edited by mack_turtle
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34 minutes ago, AntonioGG said:

I was directing it toward Mack and gotdurt.  I really do want to see data, I'm not just being facetious.

FWIW

https://pedalinginnovations.com/does-this-video-really-prove-that-flats-are-more-efficient-than-clipless-pedals/

and

https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/clipless-versus-flats-359866

 

The first is a power test that flats won, the second is a power test that clipless won.

In reality, there probably isn't any significant difference with a rider that is comfortable and familiar with either pedal. What you like will work best, for you.

Further, the tests did indicate that a clipless rider will benefit from riding flats as that will break them of the power-robbing habit of pulling up on the backstroke, this is a fact that was discovered in the first test, above.

In the second test the difference between the two was about 6%, which could be accounted for as an acceptable margin of error. There was no indication that the test results were from multiple passes with each pedal, averaged. Same with the first test. If both were based upon a single pass on each pedal the results appear to be close enough to be considered equal.

Edited by Ridenfool
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32 minutes ago, Ridenfool said:

FWIW

https://pedalinginnovations.com/does-this-video-really-prove-that-flats-are-more-efficient-than-clipless-pedals/

and

https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/clipless-versus-flats-359866

 

The first is a power test that flats won, the second is a power test that clipless won.

In reality, there probably isn't any significant difference with a rider that is comfortable and familiar with either pedal. What you like will work best, for you.

Further, the tests did indicate that a clipless rider will benefit from riding flats as that will break them of the power-robbing habit of pulling up on the backstroke, this is a fact that was discovered in the first test, above.

In the second test the difference between the two was about 6%, which could be accounted for as an acceptable margin of error. There was no indication that the test results were from multiple passes with each pedal, averaged. Same with the first test. If both were based upon a single pass on each pedal the results appear to be close enough to be considered equal.

Thanks.  That's interesting.  I could see how you could be equal power/efficiency if the up-stroke is indeed a fallacy.  But I can't see how platforms could be more efficient.  That GCN test was lacking in a bit of mechanics science.  I'd posit that the cleat placement or seat height wasn't optimal and riding clipless shoes on platforms seems ridiculous.  I'm not saying one way or the other one is better, just disappointed in the test.  

For the MTBR test, that's too short a time lapse.  I'd like to see a 1 minute test, and also tests at different RPMs.

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45 minutes ago, AntonioGG said:

I was directing it toward Mack and gotdurt.  I really do want to see data, I'm not just being facetious.

Personally, I couldn't care less what people use. I was just correcting some bold, meritless claims so that those contemplating can make an educated decision based on their own needs.

As for data, there have been lots of studies, tests, etc over the past decade; it's all there for the finding. A quick search yielded the links that I posted ealier, some by coaches, and a GMBN video that was actually scientific; start with those and I'm sure you'll find some interesting info.

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1 minute ago, AntonioGG said:

For the MTBR test, that's too short a time lapse.  I'd like to see a 1 minute test, and also tests at different RPMs.

Agreed, a portable power monitor measuring the rider's effort over a specific section of trail would be optimal. One pass with each pedal each day (with an hour break between rides), for ten days, Alternating between which pedal is ridden first on each day. That would be a practical test that might reveal any significant difference.

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