Training for Long Distance

[FJsnoozer]

I was listening to a Leadville prep podcast that I thought I thought about sharing here, but it gets a little too  far into the weeds perhaps. 

A great take away though went something like this. [Its a long enough race you can feel good, then feel really bad, but later feel good again].

I think this is really important for anyone to realize. Constant stops can make your legs feel heavy, but sometimes if you stop for a lengthy break and have some food, Some caffeine,  and a salty snack, you feel ready to go again and not like the world is going to end. 

 

[Anita Handle]

this thread has a nice combination of strategy, science based training advice and gut feel training advice. a mix of successful approaches. 

[JRA]

3 hours ago, FJsnoozer said:

I was listening to a Leadville prep podcast that I thought I thought about sharing here, but it gets a little too  far into the weeds perhaps. 

A great take away though went something like this. [Its a long enough race you can feel good, then feel really bad, but later feel good again].

I think this is really important for anyone to realize. Constant stops can make your legs feel heavy, but sometimes if you stop for a lengthy break and have some food, Some caffeine,  and a salty snack, you feel ready to go again and not like the world is going to end. 

 

Anything over 3 hours is a cheeseburger or pbj in the camelbak ride.

[512]

I do one long ride a weekend for 6-8 weeks leading up to the weekend before the ride. Like something between 6 and 9 hours.

I don't do more than an hour or two the weekend before. During those weeks I'll ride once or twice during the week.

EDIT: food I do infinite. I put 3 servings in a ziplock bag (six scoops) and take 2 bags with me dry. I mix those 6 in a bottle and pour that in an Osprey (not mixing in the bottle first creates protein cement in the camelback). Then I throw in water the rest of the way. I do one of those to start at Walnut, one on the way out of city park and then I do one on the way out of Thumper but I usually only drink ~1/3 of that one. I keep the remaining 2/3 around and drink it in between beers waiting to riders to roll in. It's basically 1 serving an hour and the ride usually breaks up that way for me. 

My infinit is w/o protein from the factory. I put in egg albumin (egg whites) after the fact b/c the soy and dairy they use doesn't sit well with me at all. I'll share my no-protein mix formula but, honestly, most folks wouldn't use it unless their body really responds well to egg (or doesn't respond well to soy or whey). Link to follow shortly - I'm getting it approved or whatever from Infinit for sharing. 

I tend to put some of the food info in the race reports I write after a race: http://www.sbtec.com/. Don't usually put much training info in there.  

Edited August 30, 2018 by 512
Read the thread, saw the nutrition discussion

[AustinBike]

I do a few of these, increasing in the intensity.

Today I was off of 10 days in CO where I only biked a few times (SS on paved path pulling a dog trailer and the slug dog.) Man, the heat hit me. I did not eat enough and started to bonk around the same spot as the last EB (right around the S16 gravel pit.) Luckily I had a few stinger blocks in my pack to give me some quick energy. Need to up my breakfast game. Today was a dozen homemade full grain crackers with peanut butter and a bowl of low-fat greek yogurt with home made granola on top. Really low carb, only medium on the protein side, I needed more.

[Albert]

3 hours ago, JRA said:

Anything over 3 hours is a cheeseburger or pbj in the camelbak ride.

A cheeseburger!!!   I have done a PB&J sandwich in the CamelBak for long (usually over five hours) rides before.  PB&J tastes incredible after you've been riding for hours.  😄

[Hugh]

When I used to do Ironman triathlons, I'd mix a very concentrated bottle of Infinit. Then I'd mark the bottle to show me how much I needed to consume in an hour. Then I would have one gel per hour.

It is extremely important to stay on top of water intake.

Interval training was my friend with one long run and one long bike per week.

[throet]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 2:26 PM, AntonioGG said:

Practice keeping your momentum up on the trail, as opposed to "having fun" if that makes sense.

This makes a lot of sense. It's just really hard to do in the summer time. My energy level gets zapped too quickly and I find myself half-assing stuff instead of attacking stuff. I can't wait until cooler temps enable me to increase intensity over an entire ride vs. just doing what amounts to interval training. 

[AustinBike]

Attacking stuff might be part of the problem. One of the things that I find on really long rides is that it is not worth burning up all of your energy on trail features. I find that I can probably clear ~80% of CP on a typical ride, but on the EB I walked a lot more than I normally do. For instance, the bench climb burns up a lot of energy, and for what? I rode it until my body said no mas, then I hopped off and walked the rest of the way. Wasn't worth burning my energy there. But, I am also the idiot riding up Jester when other people walked it (for the same reason). But I just wanted to get out of the sun.

[Anita Handle]

I rode Courtyard on an "endurance" excursion this weekend for the first time. It was not possible for me to be moving yet also keep my effort level in the endurance range. I imagine you'd want to keep those types of efforts to a minimum, or be ready for them. Lots of grunting. I need to pull a Colin Chapman and "add lightness".

[cxagent]

1 hour ago, Anita Handle said:

I rode Courtyard on an "endurance" excursion this weekend for the first time. It was not possible for me to be moving yet also keep my effort level in the endurance range. I imagine you'd want to keep those types of efforts to a minimum, or be ready for them. Lots of grunting. I need to pull a Colin Chapman and "add lightness".

On the big / long climbs I watch my heart rate. Once I hit my anaerobic threshold I get off and walk. I have to walk slow enough that I stay aerobic. Know where your anaerobic threshold is and plan how you want to spend your anaerobic efforts.

I read somewhere that most people have about an hour per day of anaerobic effort in them. World class athletes may build that up to about 2 hours. I need to save my "hour" for the efforts on the trail, not the road. 

I posted on Mojo a while back that I find my "most efficient pace". That is the pace I am covering lots of ground with low effort. Less effort is easier but I don't cover as much ground. Faster requires much more effort than the increase in speed justifies. I find that my "most efficient pace" is a lot faster than would expect it to be. On the big climbs I slow down to try to stay in the most efficient pace / aerobic zone but I am still covering a lot of ground. Part of that is maintaining momentum starting up the climb. Part is downshifting to stay aerobic.

[throet]

9 minutes ago, cxagent said:

On the big / long climbs I watch my heart rate. Once I hit my anaerobic threshold I get off and walk. I have to walk slow enough that I stay aerobic. Know where your anaerobic threshold is and plan how you want to spend your anaerobic efforts.

I read somewhere that most people have about an hour per day of anaerobic effort in them. World class athletes may build that up to about 2 hours. I need to save my "hour" for the efforts on the trail, not the road. 

I posted on Mojo a while back that I find my "most efficient pace". That is the pace I am covering lots of ground with low effort. Less effort is easier but I don't cover as much ground. Faster requires much more effort than the increase in speed justifies. I find that my "most efficient pace" is a lot faster than would expect it to be. On the big climbs I slow down to try to stay in the most efficient pace / aerobic zone but I am still covering a lot of ground. Part of that is maintaining momentum starting up the climb. Part is downshifting to stay aerobic.

This is great advice and I think that balancing the momentum and pace to stay aerobic is probably going to be one of the skills I have to develop. Also as AB suggested, setting your pride aside and walking around some really challenging features makes great sense when your goal is to stay peddling for the better part of a day. I've also been using intense interval training throughout my 2-3hr rides as a way to increase anaerobic threshold, which should help keep me in "cruise control" for most of my 2 laps at DS. 

[throet]

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 12:51 PM, FJsnoozer said:

With much respect for you, your racing experience and your contribution to the austin biking...Everything you posted basically goes against the science of racing and your recent experience is probably a representation of a poor nutrition strategy.  I am also a traveler such as yourself and have to come back and race marathons in the fall after weeks of Hotel time. 

Even PRO cyclist on the Keto kick, are using sugar on the bike in hard effort formats.  The only piece of science that backs your strategy are the cherry picked studies supporting Keto and similar strategies.  If you ride a lot of zone 2-3, you can ride without being reliant upon carbs. 

Carb loading is a real thing,  Just not everyone truly understands how to do it.  Glycogen is stored in multiple places for multiple uses.  Depending upon the effort you are right about not "needing" nutrition.  I can ride very hard for 1-2 hours on nothing bout my normal diet, but my performance would be and is better if  timed with the right type of Carbs at the right time. 

For events like the EB, I would take in large quantities of specific carbs and water. I would also be ok mentally with getting on the scale at 3 pounds heavier that morning because your glycogen stores are on the very high end of around 7-800 grams and you are retaining water. 

Most people will not do well with protein in their gut during an event like this.  With that being said, I dont hear of many pro racers being able to handle 500 calories per hour. most of their nutrition is around 250-400 as its tough for the body to absorb much more than that while its under the duress caused by a race.  If you are just at a comfortable pace, and his body is capable of absorbing the 500 then more power to him. I bet he feels great on the bike  with keeping up with calories that well. 

Oh, and YES to pizza!

 

I'm struggling with this because as you state, all of the science points to a continuous stream of glucose being key for these events. For some of us though, our bodies tend to defy science. I had a series of hypoglycemic seizures during my years of playing competitive tennis, and learned that what was happening was my blood glucose was hitting near 200 during my matches while consuming only Gatorade and water, but would plummet to 45 (lowest measured before losing consciousness) within an hour or so of being at rest. I was diagnosed as pre-diabetic, but the only real explanation I got from the endocrinologist was that my pancreas was unhappy. I've kept things under control by staying on a largely low-carb diet and by consuming a mix of carbs, fats, and proteins for energy while on long, strenuous MTB rides (no longer playing tennis). Probably not ideal from a performance perspective, but it seems to have kept my hypoglycemic episodes in check. For recovery I like to start with an apple or some grapes to combat any crash, but then follow with a good mix of protein, fat, and carbs, including beer of course.  

[FJsnoozer]

So you have a medical condition which prevents you from operating normally? That doesn’t mean it’s not right for 95% of people.

 

Also there is recent science on the Keto fad that show that Adults cannot really stay in ketosis, unlock the children the diet is used for to treat an unrelated medical condition.

 

When you have specific medical conditions, obviously things can be drastically different.

 

I would wager your largely low carb diet on average has a sufficient amount of carbs for your riding. I don’t follow your riding, and don’t know your training effort and stress to make any real judgements.

 

Where did I say just glucose?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[throet]

21 minutes ago, FJsnoozer said:

So you have a medical condition which prevents you from operating normally? That doesn’t mean it’s not right for 95% of people.

 

Also there is recent science on the Keto fad that show that Adults cannot really stay in ketosis, unlock the children the diet is used for to treat an unrelated medical condition.

 

When you have specific medical conditions, obviously things can be drastically different.

 

I would wager your largely low carb diet on average has a sufficient amount of carbs for your riding. I don’t follow your riding, and don’t know your training effort and stress to make any real judgements.

 

Where did I say just glucose?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I don't think I said that you said "just glucose". If I did it wasn't my intention. All I said was that the science points to a steady stream of glucose being essential, which is scary for me. I was merely piggy-backing your response - not countering any of your statements. I think the scary thing about my "medical condition" is that pre-diabetes technically isn't a medical condition and by the measures used to calculate it, millions of individuals have "it" and don't even realize it. I've been very athletic my entire adult life and have never been overweight; yet I found myself awakening in an ambulance because my blood sugar reached a potentially fatal level without me knowing that I had a "medical condition" or even knowing anything about metabolism. Perhaps the lesson for me here and potential warning to others is that I spent 20 years excelling at the highest amateur level of a demanding sport (racquetball) without ever paying attention to nutrition, recovery, etc. Understanding all of the science and getting that stuff right to begin with is probably a big key to longevity in any sport. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by throet

[FJsnoozer]

11 hours ago, throet said:

I don't think I said that you said "just glucose". If I did it wasn't my intention. All I said was that the science points to a steady stream of glucose being essential, which is scary for me. I was merely piggy-backing your response - not countering any of your statements. I think the scary thing about my "medical condition" is that pre-diabetes technically isn't a medical condition and by the measures used to calculate it, millions of individuals have "it" and don't even realize it. I've been very athletic my entire adult life and have never been overweight; yet I found myself awakening in an ambulance because my blood sugar reached a potentially fatal level without me knowing that I had a "medical condition" or even knowing anything about metabolism. Perhaps the lesson for me here and potential warning to others is that I spent 20 years excelling at the highest amateur level of a demanding sport (racquetball) without ever paying attention to nutrition, recovery, etc. Understanding all of the science and getting that stuff right to begin with is probably a big key to longevity in any sport. 

That's scary. I  didnt mean my post to come off so rude.  How do you react to carbs and foods with a much lower glycemic index vs those that are closer to 100? I assume you avoid white bread but do you trade for things like Rye...and tortillas :) ? 

[throet]

9 hours ago, FJsnoozer said:

That's scary. I  didnt mean my post to come off so rude.  How do you react to carbs and foods with a much lower glycemic index vs those that are closer to 100? I assume you avoid white bread but do you trade for things like Rye...and tortillas 🙂? 

No worries man I'm learning a lot from reading about what works for everybody, and frankly I'm just glad to be active now in a sport that is so enjoyable for me. I have no interest in competing at MTB; so I can approach this stuff more casually than others. I think for me it's more a question of how I don't react. As long as I keep carbs at around 45 - 55 grams per meal, and mix those carbs with good fat and protein, I feel fine all the time. When I'm hungry between meals, I usually eat a protein bar or some almonds. If I were to eat a high-carb, high-glycemic meal followed by nothing else, within 90 minutes I'd feel like shit and would be heading for a big crash. The biggest thing I avoid are sugared drinks, even fruit juice, followed by cookies, cakes, etc. I try not to eat any bread at all, except for a high-fiber muffin or breakfast cereal, but will occasionally wrap up some fajitas in a flour tortilla. Probably the highest GI items I consume regularly are baked potatoes and white rice, although lately I've been substituting a sweet potato much of the time. I generally consume fruit either on top of my cereal or pre-ride / post-ride, which seems to work well for me, especially high-fiber stuff like apples.     

[Anita Handle]

I'm trying to get ready for a marathon type "race" (I put race in quotes because I'm really just trying to beat the clock and not get pulled) and I've diagnosed myself to have TRDB (training-resistant dad bod'). Been doing a 4.5-5.5 hour steady endurance ride on Saturdays and ~three days of commuting during the week with two of those days with plenty of near and above threshold efforts. Still slow AF. Oh well. 🙂 The side effects of TRDB include funny tan lines, acute Spotify usage, and feelings of general contentedness. 

[fontarin]

42 minutes ago, Anita Handle said:

I'm trying to get ready for a marathon type "race" (I put race in quotes because I'm really just trying to beat the clock and not get pulled) and I've diagnosed myself to have TRDB (training-resistant dad bod'). Been doing a 4.5-5.5 hour steady endurance ride on Saturdays and ~three days of commuting during the week with two of those days with plenty of near and above threshold efforts. Still slow AF. Oh well. 🙂 The side effects of TRDB include funny tan lines, acute Spotify usage, and feelings of general contentedness. 

Hey!   Now I finally have a good diagnosis for my condition too.  Thank you!

[CBaron]

1 hour ago, Anita Handle said:

I'm trying to get ready for a marathon type "race" (I put race in quotes because I'm really just trying to beat the clock and not get pulled) and I've diagnosed myself to have TRDB (training-resistant dad bod'). Been doing a 4.5-5.5 hour steady endurance ride on Saturdays and ~three days of commuting during the week with two of those days with plenty of near and above threshold efforts. Still slow AF. Oh well. 🙂 The side effects of TRDB include funny tan lines, acute Spotify usage, and feelings of general contentedness. 

When is your event?  How many total hours per week are you averaging?  How long is the event (time and distance)?

-CJB

[Anita Handle]

Just now, CBaron said:

When is your event?  How many total hours per week are you averaging?  How long is the event (time and distance)?

 -CJB

Short version of the T100 (40 mile) on July 27. I'm averaging 9hrs per week. I estimate that I'll be doing well if I can finish in 7 hours. But having never done anything with this much elevation (8700 feet) at this elevation I am not sure how long it will take me. I'm sorta flinging myself at this, doing my best to prepare, and just hoping to enjoy the scenery and experience of being at a race that is run by friends and course marshalled by even moar friends, perhaps learn a thing or two.

[fontarin]

24 minutes ago, Anita Handle said:

Short version of the T100 (40 mile) on July 27. I'm averaging 9hrs per week. I estimate that I'll be doing well if I can finish in 7 hours. But having never done anything with this much elevation (8700 feet) at this elevation I am not sure how long it will take me. I'm sorta flinging myself at this, doing my best to prepare, and just hoping to enjoy the scenery and experience of being at a race that is run by friends and course marshalled by even moar friends, perhaps learn a thing or two.

Being at elevation will be the worst part.  Not being able to breathe is always fun and exciting.   

Hope you have a good event and good luck!  I was considering doing that but am in no shape for it right now.

[AntonioGG]

Go do 8700 feet here in Austin repeats if you get a chance.  Like fontarin says, the elevation will get you, but you'll at least know you can handle the actual climbing.

I've been looking at those events myself too.  Maybe next year.

[CBaron]

9hrs a week is a pretty respectable average.  Since your leaving in a week, there's not much more that you can do now.  But if I may offer a few tips (considering the training is all but wrapped up):

-Riding in CO is centered around lots of long extended climbing.  This is something foreign to us Can-Tex riders.  You have to work on "finding your happy place".  There is a state of mind that you get into where you are in "the (climbing) zone".  You CANNOT let yourself get the negative self-talk going.  You will be suffering of sorts and you need to find a way to 'enjoy the pain'.

-Sorta related to the above (and all other endurance events), but you you will also find yourself in some very low (mental) places.  You need to understand that nearly all of these low spots can be solved with a little time, food, caffeine, water, shade, etc..  You need to learn to ride out the (mental) ups and downs.  Don't get defeated, just figure out a solution and push through enough to come out the other side.  You can even convince yourself of a placebo effect [insert your own mind game here].

-Last one is important to me, and I think fairly important in most event, but maybe not in something what/way your doing this event.  But I strongly encourage people to not stop too often or for too long.  I prefer to "rest" while on the bike pedaling.  I simply slow down and eat/drink/rest/etc...BUT I'M ALMOST ALWAYS MOVING FWD.  This is good for my mind and time effort.  If you stop for just 10 minutes 4-5 times you'll be adding nearly an hour onto your overall time.  And I'm not concerned with placement-time, but your saddle time, eating time, effort time, etc..  Shorter is always better.

Good luck, it sounds like a great event.  Report back afterwards.

Later, -CJB

[AustinBike]

2 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

Short version of the T100 (40 mile) on July 27. I'm averaging 9hrs per week. I estimate that I'll be doing well if I can finish in 7 hours. But having never done anything with this much elevation (8700 feet) at this elevation I am not sure how long it will take me. I'm sorta flinging myself at this, doing my best to prepare, and just hoping to enjoy the scenery and experience of being at a race that is run by friends and course marshalled by even moar friends, perhaps learn a thing or two.

I have a hill training regimen (as you would expect.) Ping me if you want some punishment, I might even join in.