Training for Long Distance

[AntonioGG]

Cody nailed it, especially the happy zone point.  I'll add one thing.  I found that coming from Austin, at 10k the happy zone was not hard to find and it was comfortable, but if you have to punch it to pass people, it was hard to get back to that happy zone for me.  I got there 6 days before the event which is about the worst thing I could have done.  Sounds like you'll have some more time to get used to the altitude.  I've heard the other alternative is to get there the day before.

[cxagent]

I agree with Cody's comments but will add a few - 

Use your training to figure out your nutrition. Some people do fine with lots of Gu, Cliff bars and some kind of energy drink. I would puke. I usually eat rice cakes (skratch cookbook), mostly water and maybe a Gu or two. If rest stops have banana or oranges or cantaloupe, those worked well for me but I could not carry many of them.

Altitude hits everybody who is not used to it (us lowlanders). Whether riding, skiing or hiking - just SLOW DOWN until you can breathe while you keep moving. Some of those climbs may be an hour long. You can't blast up them. So slow down and spin. I read somewhere that you offload your legs by spinning but spinning loads your cardio. Mashing unloads your cardio by loading up your legs. So switch back and forth to rest one while using the other.

Find that happy place. I call it my 'most efficient pace'. I am covering a lot of distance at minimal effort. I have to keep up shifting to see if the current pace is that most efficient pace or not. If I up shift and the effort does not change much I stick with that. If I up shift and feel the effort increase a bunch - I shift back down and know I have found where I need to be at that time/location. And the pace will change at different times/locations.

Good Luck and have fun!

[Anita Handle]

4 hours ago, AntonioGG said:

Go do 8700 feet here in Austin repeats if you get a chance.  

SADIST 👊😆

[Anita Handle]

3 hours ago, CBaron said:

9hrs a week is a pretty respectable average.  Since your leaving in a week, there's not much more that you can do now.  But if I may offer a few tips (considering the training is all but wrapped up):

-Riding in CO is centered around lots of long extended climbing.  This is something foreign to us Can-Tex riders.  You have to work on "finding your happy place".  There is a state of mind that you get into where you are in "the (climbing) zone".  You CANNOT let yourself get the negative self-talk going.  You will be suffering of sorts and you need to find a way to 'enjoy the pain'.

-Sorta related to the above (and all other endurance events), but you you will also find yourself in some very low (mental) places.  You need to understand that nearly all of these low spots can be solved with a little time, food, caffeine, water, shade, etc..  You need to learn to ride out the (mental) ups and downs.  Don't get defeated, just figure out a solution and push through enough to come out the other side.  You can even convince yourself of a placebo effect [insert your own mind game here].

-Last one is important to me, and I think fairly important in most event, but maybe not in something what/way your doing this event.  But I strongly encourage people to not stop too often or for too long.  I prefer to "rest" while on the bike pedaling.  I simply slow down and eat/drink/rest/etc...BUT I'M ALMOST ALWAYS MOVING FWD.  This is good for my mind and time effort.  If you stop for just 10 minutes 4-5 times you'll be adding nearly an hour onto your overall time.  And I'm not concerned with placement-time, but your saddle time, eating time, effort time, etc..  Shorter is always better.

Good luck, it sounds like a great event.  Report back afterwards.

Later, -CJB

 

Sounds like good advice on the mental aspects. I actually have another 5 weeks (July 27) so let 'her rip with the suggestions! I've started layering on the intensity but I think my biggest weakness is simply sustained endurance pace so I continue to focus on "sweet spot"/threshold type efforts. 

[Anita Handle]

2 hours ago, AntonioGG said:

Cody nailed it, especially the happy zone point.  I'll add one thing.  I found that coming from Austin, at 10k the happy zone was not hard to find and it was comfortable, but if you have to punch it to pass people, it was hard to get back to that happy zone for me.  I got there 6 days before the event which is about the worst thing I could have done.  Sounds like you'll have some more time to get used to the altitude.  I've heard the other alternative is to get there the day before.

I will actually be there 5 or 6 days ahead so I'll be in a similar spot. Can you elaborate? Like, you were there early enough to be affected by the elevation but not early enough to adapt to it?

 

If riding in this heat doesn't adapt my ass to SOMETHING, I'm gonna spit! Jeez! I smashed myself (cardiovascularly, not literally into the ground) riding home and I could really feel the heat messing with me.

[Anita Handle]

3 hours ago, AustinBike said:

I have a hill training regimen (as you would expect.) Ping me if you want some punishment, I might even join in.

Let's do it.

[CBaron]

5 minutes ago, Anita Handle said:

I actually have another 5 weeks (July 27) so let 'her rip with the suggestions! I've started layering on the intensity but I think my biggest weakness is simply sustained endurance pace so I continue to focus on "sweet spot"/threshold type efforts. 

How's your weight?  Considering the amount of (time) you'll be climbing, the body weight you carry up the hill can have a noticeable impact.

I'll come back here tomorrow and offer up some more.  Gotta do kids stuff now...

-CJB

[Anita Handle]

Just now, CBaron said:

How's your weight?  Considering the amount of (time) you'll be climbing, the body weight you carry up the hill can have a noticeable impact.

 I'll come back here tomorrow and offer up some more.  Gotta do kids stuff now...

-CJB

Uh, you never ask a gal her weight. lol. I'm heavy but I've dropped 10 pounds or so. I'm a hair under 200 now. I actually went the "wrong" way during the winter and early spring because was lifting weights. I had added a good 5 pounds from lifting heavy. But I'm probably down 12 from that max, not lifting any longer. Once the weather was nice enough to start commuting, I converted those 4.5 hours of gym time to spinning the pedals. 

I do think that my weight it probably the lowest hanging fruit towards improving my performance. Watts/kg will be a big factor.

[AntonioGG]

2 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

I will actually be there 5 or 6 days ahead so I'll be in a similar spot. Can you elaborate? Like, you were there early enough to be affected by the elevation but not early enough to adapt to it?

You nailed it.  I had a "background" headache for 5 days.  It went away the day of the race.  I somehow still managed to enjoy myself riding some of the local trails (it was really hard not to go too hard) and I pre-rode a few of the climbs just to get used to what was coming.   I had gone a month earlier to pre-ride some more as well.  Same story.  I want to go back and do this race again (even though I hated pretty much everything about it) just to apply what I know now.  

[AustinBike]

9 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

Let's do it.

If you want to do a heavy ride we can do the following:

My house to the GB, north side out to HOL, 360 to courtyard, city park road, lap around the outside of CP (or inside if you are into that), Jester up, Ladera up, down through Ken's (you'll have to guide me on that, 360, Yaupon, through the neighborhood and back home. That used to be my EB training route, if I recall it is around 50 miles all in and the climbing should be close to 4K. I could plan on a Sunday ride some time, starting early, if you are into that type of thing.

[crazyt]

11 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

 

Sounds like good advice on the mental aspects. I actually have another 5 weeks (July 27) so let 'her rip with the suggestions! I've started layering on the intensity but I think my biggest weakness is simply sustained endurance pace so I continue to focus on "sweet spot"/threshold type efforts. 

I probably said this already (long thread), but get a wahoo kickr or equivalent smart trainer (bicycle facebook group usually has one for sale, or craigslist - typical price is about 600. 550 would be a good price.). You can set the power so you only have to focus on your cadence. Trainer road will setup a program to help you to hit your goal. It will also give you a power test to give you an idea of where you are at, then adjust all your workouts based on your power (FTP).

I watch tv while I pedal and only need to keep my cadence constant. You learn to feel the diff between 70,80, and 90 rpm. The trainer automatically adjusts the resistance to generate the power the training program requires. When you are climbing a mountain, based on your weight, you will need to generate a certain power to go at a particular speed. You can calculate this beforehand and make sure you can generate that power for the time you need, on the trainer.

It is hard to get a 3-4 hour ride in because of the heat now, so the trainer allows you to workout at night etc.

The thing I learned really quickly is that road/mountain bike riding makes it too easy to stop pedaling and coast. The trainer keeps you pedaling 100% of the time. I can pedal non stop for 2 hours without too much trouble.

When you are climbing a mountain there is no coasting.

[spicewookie]

Anyone that knows me knows that I'm not an endurance athlete.  But, I have trained for some serious recreation at altitude.  Elevation effects everyone differently and I've never had a single issue acclimating (no headaches).  I do feel the thinner air, but it's cleaner air!  Training in this thick, hot air will be great for altitude.  I was able to summit the Grand Teton via the Exum Route in 2000.  The hike up to base camp involved all of our camping and climbing gear.  I was more concerned with hauling gear at altitude than the technical climbing.  I "overburdened" my pack weight and hiked extensively to prepare.  I knew my pack weight would be 60#, so I trained with 85# in Nashville, TN.  Nashville is still lowlands and humid.  My advice would be to "overburden" yourself (do more than the event goal) a little before the event. That will produce the confidence you need come race day and the "training" won't hurt either.

Now, when I train for RIDING PARK! in the beautiful mountains of NM and CO, I usually just get the bike dialed for that type of riding and hone my bourbon selections.

Third tip, obsess over gear and then don't use 75% of it on race day.  I did that on a solo Monarch Crest ride in 2008.  I carried enough crap to homestead a small village and cut new trail if needed.  I had a virtual field hospital, weapons cache, and stadium lighting.  I love gear, but when it comes down to race/event day(s), especially supported, go Navy SEAL and pack light.  The T-40 will be well supported for emergencies.  Just focus on mechanical fixes (+simplicity) and nutrition.  You can gut out temps/weather if you're hydrated and not hungry.  Dress appropriately, but don't fret on that.  You can be miserable for a few hours if necessary.  Don't forget to look around.  You'll find your happy place in the gorgeous scenery of Telluride.  One can suffer anywhere, but you have chosen one of the most beautiful places on Earth to do so.  Remember the "suck" you put yourself through in Austin when it "sucks" in T-ride.  That should be enough to pull you through.

Last tip: keep us posted.  You have a lot of support at home and here on AMTB.COM (aka bikemojo expats).  You will crush it.

[Anita Handle]

30 minutes ago, spicewookie said:

Third tip, obsess over gear and then don't use 75% of it on race day.  I did that on a solo Monarch Crest ride in 2008.  I carried enough crap to homestead a small village and cut new trail if needed.  I had a virtual field hospital, weapons cache, and stadium lighting. 

Last tip: keep us posted.  You have a lot of support at home and here on AMTB.COM (aka bikemojo expats).  You will crush it.

HA. Sounds like you've had some great adventures! Thanks for the supportive words, my friend.

[FJsnoozer]

Good point on Zwift. Zwift has some BIG climbs in it. You can really learn proper pacing with your established zones. One of the alpe du Zwift routes is about an hour and a half ride with 3500 feet of climbing. It’s great for learning pacing for a long climb. It shows you average power for every switchback (there are 22). My first time riding up, I started out easy pacing switchbacks at around 220 watts. I think my last three were around 290 because I was catching a friend who went out too hard and knew what I had left in the tank to get over the top. (Fire and ice is the route)

I find Colorado climbing not to be difficult. It’s Buff and steady and as others have said, you can lock in your pacing. You can do a nice long slug at a high tempo power. I would be comfortable doing the columbine climb about 85% of FTp. However, as you climb that high, your power will need to drop as the air gets thinner which is OK. The trainer will help you to learn pacing and ride off of perceived effort if you don’t have a power meter on your bike. Your power production will be 25-30% lower, so expect to be riding slower than you are used too and don’t be alarmed. Your 10 second sprint should be about the same because it’s not using oxygen the same way as every where else. The good news is that while the air is thin, there is also much less oxygen in our summer air in Texas. The Density Altitude here is close to 5k feet on a day like today.

Take a really fast tire. I would run 2.25 aspens front and rear and run a hardtail. I would also have Togs.

Do you have people assisting with on course Nutrition? This is almost more important than your training IMO. The best training is in vain if you blow your nutrition and initial pacing strategy. I’ve never raced harder and felt better than the races that I started slow, had a mechanical and spent the race going through people.

If you aren’t going for podium and just for a finish, start EASY. If it feels like a great pace, you are probably going too fast. Throw down on the last third of the race like you are lighting a fire and treat it as an XCO race from there. Going out too hard there can create an epically painful day.

Not everyone will feel bad at elevation. I breathe just fine and felt great riding there in the winter. Training in our heat will increase your plasma volume and will help. You won’t get all of the benefits of living at elevation, but it sure helps. You will actually have an enormous level of freshness and energy when you get on the bike. The scenery is amazing and the air will feel refreshing.

Lastly, listen to all of the TrainerRoad podcasts on Leadville. They have several that cover race prep and race experience and strategy. I’ll see if I can link them at some point.


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[AntonioGG]

I love the Trainerroad podcasts!

FJ, I'm at 205-210lbs and I find that simulated climbs (Rouvvy, Zwift) end up with my CycleOps Hammer overheating and decreasing the resistance.  It's a combination of my comfortable pace not spinning the wheel/fan fast enough, and my weight + simulation = higher Watts when doing anything that gets beyond 5-6%.  So I stick to TrainerRoad (if I absolutely have to) for that reason and hill repeats outside.  It was the same problem with my Computrainer even when pointing a fan right at it.

[Hugh]

Back in my Ironman days, I found giving encouragement to others actually helped me.

You still have a couple weeks to get nutrition dialed in.

I found Infinit with a gel pack an hour worked well for me.

[Ridenfool]

After riding regularly in Texas Summer heat I've been surprised to have no issues at all riding in Colorado mountains in the late Summer / Fall. ( this was in Frisco/Keystone/Breck, riding on Divide trails) Only when I've gone to elevation and haven't been riding regularly did I notice the thin air in a significant way.

I've mused over this and think that the fact that humid air is "thinner" despite how thick it feels (reference: pilots account for thinner air due to humidity when planning a flight), may have some bearing on this, but, having an efficient system for moving Oxygen from lungs to muscles is probably the more accurate reason.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Ridenfool

[CBaron]

 

1 hour ago, FJsnoozer said:

Good point on Zwift. Zwift has some BIG climbs in it. You can really learn proper pacing with your established zones. One of the alpe du Zwift routes is about an hour and a half ride with 3500 feet of climbing. It’s great for learning pacing for a long climb. It shows you average power for every switchback (there are 22). My first time riding up, I started out easy pacing switchbacks at around 220 watts. I think my last three were around 290 because I was catching a friend who went out too hard and knew what I had left in the tank to get over the top. (Fire and ice is the route)

I find Colorado climbing not to be difficult. It’s Buff and steady and as others have said, you can lock in your pacing. You can do a nice long slug at a high tempo power. I would be comfortable doing the columbine climb about 85% of FTp. However, as you climb that high, your power will need to drop as the air gets thinner which is OK. The trainer will help you to learn pacing and ride off of perceived effort if you don’t have a power meter on your bike. Your power production will be 25-30% lower, so expect to be riding slower than you are used too and don’t be alarmed. Your 10 second sprint should be about the same because it’s not using oxygen the same way as every where else. The good news is that while the air is thin, there is also much less oxygen in our summer air in Texas. The Density Altitude here is close to 5k feet on a day like today.

Take a really fast tire. I would run 2.25 aspens front and rear and run a hardtail. I would also have Togs.

Do you have people assisting with on course Nutrition? This is almost more important than your training IMO. The best training is in vain if you blow your nutrition and initial pacing strategy. I’ve never raced harder and felt better than the races that I started slow, had a mechanical and spent the race going through people.

If you aren’t going for podium and just for a finish, start EASY. If it feels like a great pace, you are probably going too fast. Throw down on the last third of the race like you are lighting a fire and treat it as an XCO race from there. Going out too hard there can create an epically painful day.

Not everyone will feel bad at elevation. I breathe just fine and felt great riding there in the winter. Training in our heat will increase your plasma volume and will help. You won’t get all of the benefits of living at elevation, but it sure helps. You will actually have an enormous level of freshness and energy when you get on the bike. The scenery is amazing and the air will feel refreshing.

Lastly, listen to all of the TrainerRoad podcasts on Leadville. They have several that cover race prep and race experience and strategy. I’ll see if I can link them at some point.


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1 hour ago, AntonioGG said:

I love the Trainerroad podcasts!

FJ, I'm at 205-210lbs and I find that simulated climbs (Rouvvy, Zwift) end up with my CycleOps Hammer overheating and decreasing the resistance.  It's a combination of my comfortable pace not spinning the wheel/fan fast enough, and my weight + simulation = higher Watts when doing anything that gets beyond 5-6%.  So I stick to TrainerRoad (if I absolutely have to) for that reason and hill repeats outside.  It was the same problem with my Computrainer even when pointing a fan right at it.

 

 I knew AntonioGG would chime in here with agreement on FJ's post.  🙂  

 

You've been given some good training advice in here and thus I don't want to pile on with more advice and possible 'noise'.  But this brings me to my next point: you need to know yourself.  I've known Antonio(GG) for a long time and I (we) know that we approach training and racing through a different lens.  One is not necessarily better than the other, but given our personalities (and possible strengths & weaknesses?) we choose to go about things in a different way.  Historically, I've been a luddite with technology and training.  Outside of a (sorta) recent use of Strava, I've never used any type of training device.  No computer, HR monitor, training log, etc..  I myself found that, for me, with the addition of this data-input-schedule it made things feel like work.  And this 'work feeling' produced a form of burnout and lack of fun for me.  Thus I've always used perceived effort (PE) for my riding, training, racing.  If I feel good...I'll go fast; if I feel bad...I'll go slow.  Don't get me wrong, I very much understand the science and physiology behind human performance, so my PE method is not applied with a cave-man type mindset.  But rather, I found that I had to trick myself into getting the specified training needs that competition required.  Do I need to work on intervals?....then I'd show up and do the Driveway Crit.  Do I want to work on race tactics and threshold over/unders?....then I'd show up to the (old) Austin T-nighter.  Base endurance building?....long mellow rides on my MTB.  But if it was loaded up as a training format on my calendar with times/numbers/HR efforts then it felt un-fun to me.

So, I'm only bringing this up as you begin to sift through all the info your being fed here.  Understanding yourself and how you approach things and what creates results and enjoyment in your riding is important.  Its important to your long-term riding "hobby" and also important for the granular application towards your objective.

Later, -CJB

[June Bug]

The Telluride 100 has added a 2-person relay option. One person races Loop 1 (40 miles), the other Loop 2 (60 miles).  Same as 2018, there's a 40-mile option (Loop 1), which starts off with Black Bear Pass and includes Opir Pass. 

[Anita Handle]

Hi y'all! Welp, today was the T100/40 and I ended up bailing on it. I fell crossing Walnut three weeks ago and twisted my knee, chipped a piece of cartilage and sprained my ACL. Will get arthroscopy to remove the chip and smoove over the joint after I get back from vacay. I did feel good enough to do a Gondola assisted 20 miler over much of the same trail and WOW the trails here are magnificent.

What I learned:

1) it was good to come here and gaze in wonder at the Black Bear Pass climb from town. It looks even worse than the Strava tracks I'd been obsessing over for months. It was also good to become familiar with some of the trails, with how the race is conducted (I volunteered as a course marshal up on the mountain), how to dress for the weather, how I'd feel at 8500 feet, how I'd perform at 8500 feet, etc. I still learned a lot even without racing.

2) I changed up my riding patterns and I am pretty sure I saw improvement in my fitness before I messed my knee up. I did several weeks with very little intensity, just "sweet spot" and lower including a ~4-5 hr "sweet spot" ride on Saturdays. Then added some intensity  during my work commutes, 3-5 minute high effort intervals as the streets and lights allowed.  I think I'd just do "more" in the future. More hours if I could fit it into my schedule and extend my one long ride to 5-6 hrs. 

3) I put together a hardtail for the event as my XC ride and I think it would be perfectly sufficient for this race. The singletrack is SO F*CKING buff! A full suspension trail or XC bike would def give me more confidence on fast, narrow DH sections but my new-to-me Indy Fab was a hoot. 

4) I'd do more work on sorting out what works for me in terms of nutrition. I was going to go with Tailwind, which almost entirely carb based. I was more focused on "just riding" and getting my bike ready.

5) Maybe do more events to avoid putting all of my event eggs in one basket. 

6) These racers are BEASTS!! 

7) Telluride is beautiful! My family has loved vacationing here. Wife initially thought I was sticking us in the boonies just to serve my desire to do this race but she loves it here.

Thanks for all of your advice and tips! If my family will come back, I might try it next year! (though Black Bear Pass scares the shit out of me)

Edited July 28, 2019 by Anita Handle

[cxagent]

Your injury is a set back - not an end. Start planning on next year. And I recommend doing other events as part of the preparations.

Just keep it fun. When it is not fun I get tired of it. If I am "working" I want to be paid for it.

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by cxagent

[AntonioGG]

Thanks for the report.  I want to do this next year as well.  I just looked over the strava for a couple of people I follow, 12k feet in 91 miles of riding (shortened due to snow at altitude.)  that’s pretty epic.  

[Anita Handle]

I’ve never ridden any of the trail on the traditional first loop, which includes the big Black Bear climb but I rode 20 miles of this years first loop and it was CHOCKED FULL of magnificent narrow alpine single track through pine and aspen forests. Very much worth a visit.








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[AustinBike]

Yeah, that does not suck.