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Training for Long Distance


TheSarge

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With discussion about Dragonslayer and Enchilada Buffet on the uptick, I thought I'd see what suggestions y'all have on training for these things.

What do y'all do to get your body ready for 12-14 hrs of punishment - especially in the case of Dragonslayer where it will all be pretty brutal, rocky terrain?

Right now my plan is to just ride lots and try to push my distance and time in the saddle as much as my schedule will allow.  I'm also trying to put in more time at LGT to get familiar with the trail so maybe I have an idea of where to push it and where to relax.

I'm also curious about nutrition.  I've always just carried some bars or Clif Shots with me and not worried too much.  What are you doing to keep energy levels up throughout an extended effort?

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High Intensity training during the week.  Get 60 to 90 minutes in when you can 2-3x a week.  Get easier recovery rides in during the week.  Get long rides in on the weekend.  Start with 2 hours, work yourself up to at least 75% of the race distance.  You don't need to do race distance in your training if you do high intensity.  Get some core work in for sure, at least 30 minutes of hard-core core work.  Work yourself up to the harder and harder stuff.  Practice keeping your momentum up on the trail, as opposed to "having fun" if that makes sense.

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Trying to picture what you're saying, here's an attempt -

Mon - Fast brushy ride - 90 min - core work
Tues - Fast Walnut R&I ride - 75 min
Wed - Rest Day - core work
Thurs - Slow brushy ride - 90 min
Fri - Slow brushy ride - 60 min - core work
Sat - Slow LGT loop - 4 hr
Sun - Rest Day - core work

As for crack and Mountain Dew - it has to be diet Mountain Dew so I can stay keto :-)

 

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Your weekly rides look fine. I would start doing longer and longer distance to get used to the time / miles in the saddle. That Saturday ride needs to become 5 hours. Then 6 hours. etc.

Nutrition is a personal thing. Go with what works for you. Your training is where you figure out what works for you. For me, I need real food. Gu / Cliff Bars / whatever are fine for a shorter ride. But I can't eat more than about one Cliff Bar a day or I will get sick. Probably could do two or three Gu's before I got sick. Similar with electrolyte / carb drinks. I carry Skratch / Portable Rice Cakes (see the Skratch Portable Cookbook) and stop for a Subway sandwich and chocolate milk about lunch time. I have to rest for 15 - 20 minutes after eating the Subway. I don't want to eat anything that is real spicy or loaded with grease, but otherwise most any real food works for me.

Edited by cxagent
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13 hours ago, TheSarge said:

What do y'all do to get your body ready for 12-14 hrs of punishment - especially in the case of Dragonslayer where it will all be pretty brutal, rocky terrain?

Doing it in 9 hours helps. 

But really, I find long rides is the best way to train for long rides. Although I've never felt like I was "training." I'm just riding my bicycle. 

For nutrition during a big ride I stick to Hammer products and electrolyte pills. I have a Hammer gel every hour, and 3 or 4 scoops of Perpetuem every 3 hours. 

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Oh and to add a comment about your question regarding the best way to train for long distance.  I know this is a 4 letter word around here...but riding the road bike can be a G-R-E-A-T way to build depth into your fitness.  If I do any structured training, then its almost always done on a road bike.  Additionally, getting out in a group of 30-40 riders who are on the gas, and you don't really know your way back (or have enough pride to not want to get dropped), then you'll dig amazingly deep into the pain-bank during those times.  Much MUCH harder than I'd ever go on a MTB, and that does wonders for your overall level of fitness.

-Cody "I like all bikes" Baron

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12 hours ago, CBaron said:

Oh and to add a comment about your question regarding the best way to train for long distance.  I know this is a 4 letter word around here...but riding the road bike can be a G-R-E-A-T way to build depth into your fitness.  If I do any structured training, then its almost always done on a road bike.  Additionally, getting out in a group of 30-40 riders who are on the gas, and you don't really know your way back (or have enough pride to not want to get dropped), then you'll dig amazingly deep into the pain-bank during those times.  Much MUCH harder than I'd ever go on a MTB, and that does wonders for your overall level of fitness.

-Cody "I like all bikes" Baron

+1

I was going to mention this as well.  Throw in some road rides because even hard rides on the trail do not have the same benefits that a road ride has when it comes to improving your aerobic capacity.   I can feel a difference with even one hard 50 or 60 mile road ride on the weekend.  The other thing I recommend doing is doing some hill repeats on some of the climbs of the EB.  You're going to be doing these hard hills after quite a few miles.   Start by doing something like Yaupon or Coutyard 2-3x, take your time between them, play with your gears and/or pace.  Even if you plan on walking these during the EB, they will improve your fitness and prepare you mentally as well.  Ride them on your MTB so you know what to expect.

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Back when I was in shape to do the EB, and had extra time.  I did lots of riding to the trails on my MTB.  Riding from Cedar Park to Walnut or the Greenbelt or City Park does wonders for teaching you about pacing yourself and gaining overall fitness.  Knowing that you have to keep enough in the bank for the trails, and then keeping enough to get back home.  Amazing how your body can respond if you find places to relax and recover while still moving forward on the bike.

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On 8/24/2018 at 8:10 AM, TheSarge said:

With discussion about Dragonslayer and Enchilada Buffet on the uptick, I thought I'd see what suggestions y'all have on training for these things.

What do y'all do to get your body ready for 12-14 hrs of punishment - especially in the case of Dragonslayer where it will all be pretty brutal, rocky terrain?

Right now my plan is to just ride lots and try to push my distance and time in the saddle as much as my schedule will allow.  I'm also trying to put in more time at LGT to get familiar with the trail so maybe I have an idea of where to push it and where to relax.

I'm also curious about nutrition.  I've always just carried some bars or Clif Shots with me and not worried too much.  What are you doing to keep energy levels up throughout an extended effort?

Unfortunately getting miles riding on the road is the best way. i like doing walnut ->bcgb main trail, HOL, 360, courtyard, jester, yaupon, walnut

start adding in bcgb, city park, thumper, st eds, walnut as the ride becomes easier. I was slow the year I finished, but only managed to get 4 big training rides in the month before. The biggest ride was 60 miles I think.

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If you can do a 60, you can finish the EB. Adding in the trails is a good idea. The WC > BCGB gets you a lot of saddle time without having to stress, definitely a leg stretcher as it is all down hill for the most part and racks your miles up. You're already ~10 miles in before you hit any real technical trail.

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On 8/24/2018 at 10:55 PM, CBaron said:

IMHO one of the things you have to have really dialed in for the DS are your "touch points".  You need to have the correct saddle, clothing, gloves (multiple pairs?), shoes, grips, etc.. 

-CJB

this for sure. I have started doing 3+ hour rides to prep for the eb and my feet have started going numb. Havent done long rides since I switched to time pedals.

Edited by crazyt
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ok, serious question (I have to preface since I make lots of jokes...), do you rely more on fat during easier efforts (think, sustainable pace, easy breathing, low-ish heart rate) and burn through carb stores during higher efforts (think, rapidly climbing heart rate, legs feeling the burn, can sustain for only 1-10 minutes)? I've read that but wondered what you people thought.

I'd guess that you need to avoid going into the "red" on a super long ride like the EB. 

As an experiment, I rode my mtb for 4 hrs on the road yesterday at a steady, easy pace. I brought a sandwich just in case I started to bonk but since I'd kept the pace pretty easy, I felt fine, calorically, with only 1 bottle of hydration drink, probably 200 calories. I did start to feel various aches and pains as I spun away for longer and longer, but didn't feel hungry per se.

I know if I'd been smashing myself on a hard trail for 4 hrs of pedalling, I'd have eaten a whole pizza.

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I wasnt able to ride the last eb I trained for. At the time I was doing a keto diet. I think you would need to do a keto diet in advance to train your body to be comfortable burning fat instead of carbs.

Even though I was keto, I still felt like I needed some gu's. I tried eating coconut oil from packs and peanut butter, but it just wasnt quite enough.

Being in keto means easy spinning was fine, but  I felt like I was having trouble with the bursts to get up climbs or ledges.

Too many goos make me sick, peanut butter and jelly, plus a few gus worked well for me. Pringles or other salty food helps too.  I also reached the point during my training that I couldnt drink sugary drinks so I stuck with water mostly

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there is a journal article about a morbidly obese guy who didnt eat anything for over a year. He lost about .7 pounds per day. His doctors supplemented with vitamins and electrolytes.

Once you can get past a few days of fasting supposedly it gets easier.

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9 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

ok, serious question (I have to preface since I make lots of jokes...), do you rely more on fat during easier efforts (think, sustainable pace, easy breathing, low-ish heart rate) and burn through carb stores during higher efforts (think, rapidly climbing heart rate, legs feeling the burn, can sustain for only 1-10 minutes)? I've read that but wondered what you people thought.

I'd guess that you need to avoid going into the "red" on a super long ride like the EB. 

As an experiment, I rode my mtb for 4 hrs on the road yesterday at a steady, easy pace. I brought a sandwich just in case I started to bonk but since I'd kept the pace pretty easy, I felt fine, calorically, with only 1 bottle of hydration drink, probably 200 calories. I did start to feel various aches and pains as I spun away for longer and longer, but didn't feel hungry per se.

I know if I'd been smashing myself on a hard trail for 4 hrs of pedalling, I'd have eaten a whole pizza.

I've been trying to understand this stuff myself and it is mind boggling. Clearly fat is a key source of energy, either directly by breaking it down and generating ATP molecules (lipolysis) or by converting it to glucose/glycogen (gluconeogenesis) when needed. Theoretically the latter will take place only when glucose levels are low and glycogen stores are depleted. I have read, as you imply, that fat will be used directly for energy under sustained, less strenuous activities (<=65% of aerobic capacity). In an endurance event the requires a good bit of anaerobic output combined with periods of high-intensity aerobic output though I would think you have to maintain enough glucose / glycogen to fuel your muscles throughout. I'm sure some fat is getting burned as well across these events, but I just don't know how or when it comes into play. Training is critical not only to improve athletic ability but also to improve energy efficiency, i.e. stronger muscles can store more glycogen and keeping your anaerobic-to-aerobic ratio lower means muscles consume less energy to perform the same amount of work. Even then, glycogen will eventually be depleted if you're not consuming glucose in some form throughout the event. That's my take anyway, based on what I've read. Hopefully the experts who've excelled in these events will chime in with their real-world knowledge. I'm going to do 2 laps at DS which will likely take me between 7-8 hours to complete. I need to figure out whether to periodically munch on trail mix and honey stingers, possibly with a light meal at the turn, or just power my way through with gels, blocks, powders, and other crap specially formulated for these types of events. 

Edited by throet
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On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:59 PM, Barry said:

For nutrition during a big ride I stick to Hammer products and electrolyte pills. I have a Hammer gel every hour, and 3 or 4 scoops of Perpetuem every 3 hours. 

Barry do you generally follow the Hammer guidelines as well? I've been trying to figure all of this stuff out on my own, but they sort of spell out for you through their various published guidelines. 

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21 minutes ago, throet said:

Barry do you generally follow the Hammer guidelines as well? I've been trying to figure all of this stuff out on my own, but they sort of spell out for you through their various published guidelines. 

Before I did the nutcracker (LGT+brushy+connecting stuff loop) I read this article: https://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/less-is-best-the-right-way-to-fuel/  and it really fucked me up.  It recommends 120-150 calories/hour, which was spectacularly not enough food.  I have no idea how that is advice given by professionals.

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41 minutes ago, throet said:

Barry do you generally follow the Hammer guidelines as well? I've been trying to figure all of this stuff out on my own, but they sort of spell out for you through their various published guidelines. 

I'd probably do better if I did. I just go with a large carborrific meal about 1-3 hours ahead. Then 1 gel an hour and 3 to 4 scoops or Perpetuem about every 3 hours. 

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23 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Before I did the nutcracker (LGT+brushy+connecting stuff loop) I read this article: https://www.hammernutrition.com/knowledge/less-is-best-the-right-way-to-fuel/  and it really fucked me up.  It recommends 120-150 calories/hour, which was spectacularly not enough food.  I have no idea how that is advice given by professionals.

Would you say that otherwise you were a well conditioned endurance athlete at the time? I'm only asking because there are other things that can wipe you out during an event like that, including inability to handle high volumes of waste (lactic acid) from too much anaerobic output over an extended period. In other words, if you're huffing and puffing to recover from every considerable climb, then you are probably doomed to feeling like shit regardless of the nutrition / hydration level. This stuff scares me a bit because for an untrained person like me and especially at my advanced age, it seems easy to get yourself into trouble by getting shit out of balance. I know others are stating that a big part of it is just being willing to do whatever it takes to finish, but I can say with certainty that if I start feeling like shit at 1.5 laps at DS, I'm done. I don't need to be that guy you see staggering across the finish line with muscles seizing up and eyes rolling back.     

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