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Benefit of long, slack, and low for Austin area trails?


loop_out

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After nearly 4 years away, I started riding again recently.  I have a nice 5 year old FS bike I am perfectly happy with, but got bit by a new bike bug, as you are bound to be after rekindling an old passion.  In short, I'd like to buy a new bike.  In an attempt to rationalize this irrational thing I want to do, I've been reading all the internet chatter about long, slack, and low, which seems to be all the rage nowadays.  For those of you who made the change to one of these new bikes with modern geometry, what were your experiences like for Austin trails?  Was it a game changer?  If it's relevant as a reference point, I have the most fun launching drops, but get the most satisfaction out of making up big ledges riding Brushy Creek,  City Park, BCGB back trails.  I don't really care too much for the smooth flowy stuff. 

I should mention other than just wanting a new bike, I am not particularly motivated to change.  I am also unsure about the benefits of the modern geometry, since they mostly seem applicable to extended technical descents, which we generally lack in this area.  I suppose I can go try riding some of these new bikes, but I just don't have time, and would rather rely on you fine folks/strangers on the internet.   

  

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It's very subjective. For some, LLS bikes make everything awesome. I am under the impression that most of these style of bike were developed in trails that are not what you find in the Barton Creek Greenbelt, though.

Personally not a fan of "long" bikes. I know my body dimensions have not changed in decades and probably never will. tacking a ton of extra reach only sounds like a good way to lose control over the bike.

Low BB in height puts your pedals close to rocks. Nope. If a low BB can be achieved without dragging your pedals on the ground, it makes the bike "stable" which can be good until it compromises your ability to vault the bike over stuff.

That said, my bike has a lot of BB drop and a low BB hieght. I think it makes the bike too "stable" for my riding style. I don't hit rocks with my pedals often, but I find myself riding more conservatively thank I'd like to avoid that.

Edited by mack_turtle
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The whole LLS phenomenom is completely subjective to the end user.  Would I recommend a mondraker for deception? Probably not. Generally most 100-120mm 29s and 130-140mm 27.5s work well here and wont be too slack or long. My honzo had a sub 12" BB and was able to get through the usual rockbike riding here without being too much of an issue.

Demo, demo, demo

 

Edited by ATXZJ
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I've had the chance to ride a bunch of different types of bikes, and I keep coming back to a 120ish travel 29er for most CenTx riding.   Unless you're riding really rough stuff all the time, I find it to be a good 'do-it-all' for Austin.

Currently on a Giant Trance 29er and it's working out very well.  An SB100 was my top pick but I got a really good deal used on the Trance.  So far I'm digging it, in the 4-5 rides I've actually got on it in the past 2 months. 

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1 hour ago, Seths Pool said:

...an intense primer is a pretty much perfect bike for central Texas regular do everything bike. IMO 

Basically this.  If I were looking for a general purpose bike today I'd ride everything with geometry similar to the Primer and pick the one I actually liked best.  Nothing beats actual demos.

That's what I did a year ago and ended up with an SB4.5 because I liked it a little more for mostly unquantifiable reasons.

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I did roughly the same thing a few years back and decided I needed to get something as lls as I possibly could in my price range. A capra at this point in time. I got the bike and I loved it. I could smash down trails and I could acceptably ride it up technical bits. As I got further down the road I realized more and more that is was no longer that much fun to ride it up a hill and I started to ride less and less as I did not find mush enjoyment in the regular trails. I was only enjoying the stuff that used to scare me since that was now the only thing that provided some challenge. I wound up not riding for 3 months and realized something had to change and I went back out demoing bikes only a year later. Settled on a Process 111 which still was decently lls, but reasonably so and complimented our local trails much better. I started enjoying riding more again after this purchase and I can completely attribute it to having a bike that fit our trails and less so current trends.

I personally do not feel that the current drastic trends in bikes are really suited to our local trails. There are exceptions of course, but your usual GB, Brushy, 4c ride is alot more fun on a bike with a bit more of a conservative geo. Those long bikes are a pain to pedal uphill and even more so to muscle around some of our wonderful switchbacks.

The real answer is demo demo demo, but the best answer is just get 3 bikes. SS hardtail, 120-130mm trail bike and your 170mm LLS Beast of a mini dh.

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Yep, Primer is another awesome bike.  

For TX riding in general, assuming you ride a big variety of terrain, here's what my short list would be *based on bikes I've ridden*, in no particular order:

Shorter travel (100 travel) Yeti SB100, Pivot 429 (though this is more XC right now - I imagine they'll redesign this year or next), Turner Czar (only had a super short demo but felt very similar to Pivot 429)

110-130 travel: Giant Trance 29, Stumpjumper 29 (ST version), SC Tallboy, Intense Primer, Yeti SB4.5, Ibis Ripley (though I haven't ridden the latest version)

 

 

Edited by fontarin
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You guys suck with all them reasoned opinions.  What I needed were unqualified endorsements of the recent geometry trends, and how they were going to transform my rides so I can buy a new bike with less guilt.  Even better would have been talks of added safety I can show my wife. 

I did like the comment about really needing three bikes, and I am 2/3 way there with my singles speed 29er and my 140mm 27.5.  I wish I could find time to ride another bike, but my neighbors already look at me side ways when I head out to ride instead of tending to my admittedly weed infested yard.

Oh well, I guess I'll go look at some new handlebars or something ....

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1 hour ago, crazyt said:

I really like my turner czar which has about the same geometry as the primer.  Easier on the climbs, but not quite as safe on the downs.

 

 

I love mine too and it’s already 5 years old.  I just ordered new bushings for the pivots.  I see myself upgrading my SS or road bike before my Czar.

@loop_out build a little pump track or skills section in your yard to keep you motivated on the yard work.

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2 hours ago, csmceuen said:

Settled on a Process 111 which still was decently lls, but reasonably so and complimented our local trails much better. I started enjoying riding more again after this purchase and I can completely attribute it to having a bike that fit our trails and less so current trends.

 

The real answer is demo demo demo, but the best answer is just get 3 bikes. SS hardtail, 120-130mm trail bike and your 170mm LLS Beast of a mini dh.

Had two P111s and really liked them for all around trail riding. After I installed a 2* headset and 40mm offset CSU, it felt like a whole different bike.  

25 minutes ago, loop_out said:

You guys suck with all them reasoned opinions.  

How about this then: LLS is a bit pointless here as 90% of the riding averages around 5mph while negotiating a series of switchback, switchback, switchback, ledge, ledge, switchbacks.  :classic_biggrin:

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3 minutes ago, aki aki said:

What's a "good" example HT geo for this area?  

Also very subjective. I ride with a lot of singlespeeder dudes who are on Chumba Stella's, which have short-reach, long chainstays, steep angles, and high bottom brackets/ small BB drop. Others are on Vassago, Honzo, Unit, or Nimble 9 options, which have geo that's all over the map. I plan to replace my Jabberwocky (low BB, steep-ish HA, long reach) with a Karate Monkey, which has middle of the road geo.

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15 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

Also very subjective. I ride with a lot of singlespeeder dudes who are on Chumba Stella's, which have short-reach, long chainstays, steep angles, and high bottom brackets/ small BB drop. Others are on Vassago, Honzo, Unit, or Nimble 9 options, which have geo that's all over the map. I plan to replace my Jabberwocky (low BB, steep-ish HA, long reach) with a Karate Monkey, which has middle of the road geo.

My SS ht is a Honzo ST and I think it is the perfect balance of bike for my tastes. Feels aggressive and gets rowdy on the DH and still does a great job on the uphills. I also run it with 150mm fork and it still feels super efficient as a SS which surprises me.

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Also have a steel Honzo and love it, it's a 2013 but geo was spot on even back then.  Have a 140mm fork and can take on anything around here. No issues with rock strikes and it has a low BB. All around fun bike for here.

Just got a lls slack endurobro bike to round out the stable though.  I will say being a Clydesdale rider I love this trend of long bikes because I can finally find an XL that fits me right.  Now it is funny seeing smaller guys sizing up to L and XL bikes hanging on for dear life.  I don't think our trails really call for these crazy slacked out bikes, but they are a blast in the right terrain.

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55 minutes ago, ATXZJ said:

How about this then: LLS is a bit pointless here as 90% of the riding averages around 5mph while negotiating a series of switchback, switchback, switchback, ledge, ledge, switchbacks.  :classic_biggrin:

Now you have truly ruined it for me.  Given that I have liked pretty much all bikes I have ridden around here, without regard to setup/geometry, and my strong propensity for confirmation bias, I should have just gone ahead and bought a new bike without asking here.  Then again, maybe the geometry on my 90s Gary Fisher Aquila was beyond its time.

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24 minutes ago, loop_out said:

Now you have truly ruined it for me.  Given that I have liked pretty much all bikes I have ridden around here, without regard to setup/geometry, and my strong propensity for confirmation bias, I should have just gone ahead and bought a new bike without asking here.  Then again, maybe the geometry on my 90s Gary Fisher Aquila was beyond its time.

I may have missed it, but for reference what are you riding right now? I feel like we could be more pushy and convincing depending on our strongly biased opinion of your current steed. :classic_biggrin:

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Clearly you have overlooked the undercurrent to prevent anybody from buying a bike until we've had a long dry break in the weather.

Sorry, you aren't going to get any sort of serious encouragement to do something that could further jeopardize everyone from being able to ride.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the you. :classic_biggrin:

Edited by Ridenfool
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Wow, that's a long reach. Here are some numbers for what seem to be popular 27.5 HTs I've been comparing. 

I only have wheelbase, reach, and head tube angle. The numbers are for the med/large models. 

 

Bike Fluid HT1 SC Chameleon D+ Giant Fathom 1 2019 Specialized Fuse Comp 27.5 Commencal Meta HT AM                                              
wheelbase 1142/1168 1140/1160 44.5/45.4 1130/1153 1136/1161 1174/1201                                              
head angle 67.5/67.5 67.3/67.3 67/67 67.5/67.5 65/65                                              
reach 425/447 437/460 429/444 420/440 420/445                                              
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I've got a Canfield Epo (slack but not particularly long) HT w/ a 140 fork that I really enjoyed.   It's really poppy with short chainstays.   Unfortunately moved the parts over to another bike for now - back issues making HT riding rough on me.   

 

Here's the EPO geo (I ride a med):

  Med Lg
Top Tube Length (Effective) 601mm 629mm 642mm
Reach 423mm 450mm 467mm
Stack 642mm 649mm 657mm
Standover Height 693mm 713mm 730mm
Seat Tube Length 419mm 457mm 507mm
Wheel Base 1149mm 1178mm 1199mm
Head Tube Angle 140mm Fork 66.8° 66.8° 66.8°
Head Tube Angle 120mm Fork 67.9° 67.9° 67.9°
Seat Tube Angle (Effective) 74.5° 74.5° 74.5°
Seat Tube Angle (Actual) 72.8° 72.8° 72.8°
Chainstay Length 414mm 414mm 414mm
Bottom Bracket Drop (140mm Fork) 49mm 49mm 49mm
Head Tube length 115mm 122mm 130mm
Edited by fontarin
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2 hours ago, aki aki said:

I've been asking the same questions as I research a new bike. Most of the advice here centers around FS bikes. Curious to hear recommendations around HTs,

What's a "good" example HT geo for this area?  

I love my canfield epo. A little slack, short chainstays, moderate reach, moderate STA (74.5). Similar geo to a kona honzo.  They closed them out a few years ago and the price was as low as $800 for a carbon frame.

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