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Benefit of long, slack, and low for Austin area trails?


loop_out

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19 minutes ago, crazyt said:

I love my canfield epo. A little slack, short chainstays, moderate reach, moderate STA (74.5). Similar geo to a kona honzo.  They closed them out a few years ago and the price was as low as $800 for a carbon frame.

Yep!  I'm currently selling mine for 400 if anyone is interested.  Wishing I could get it built back up, but I think I'm on FS for the foreseeable future.

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So...  my take:

not so much the trails that I ride...  but the "new" geo takes away the "10 speed" feeling and the bike seems more like an off road moto.

I don't feel like I'm riding a Schwinn Varsity through the woods.

Tons more confidence every where for me... 

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2 hours ago, csmceuen said:

I may have missed it, but for reference what are you riding right now? I feel like we could be more pushy and convincing depending on our strongly biased opinion of your current steed. :classic_biggrin:

2014 Transition Bandit 27.5 running 150mm Pike up front.  It has 420mm reach on a medium bike - pretty short by today's standards.  Head angle is around 68 degrees.  I should give up talking like I know anything about bike geometry since I am about as sensitive as a toilet seat when it comes to how a bike rides and is setup.  As an example, I rode a Yeti SB95 just prior to the Transition, and I could not tell any loss of pedaling efficiency going from the complicated Yeti Switch platform to a single pivot.     

 

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Interesting- I've never ridden a motorcycle, on or off road, and don't have a desire to do so. So much of "progress" in bicycle design is pushing them toward handling more like motorbikes, sometimes not stopping at putting a motor on it. But pedal powered bikes are still often becoming more Moto. This works for some people, especially those with a Moto background.

As I spent 20 years riding BMX, this is the opposite of what I want in a bike. I don't want a bike that inspires me to plow over everything but a bicycle that handles like an extension of myself. It's hard to explain, but the way people talk about riding the new generation of bikes just sounds boring to me.

I read on some forum a while back someone who was complaining that the new LLS bikes he had ridden felt like he could not throw them around, and it was hard to lift the front tire, to which someone replied ( I kid you not) "you don't have to." I read on and he implyed that newer bikes are so advanced and plush that you don't need skill, strength, technique, or finesse to ride a technical trail, just sit and pedal and let all the suspension do all the work.

I know that's hyperbolic but I almost choked when I read that. Impudent strumpet! How f-ing BORING to engage in activity where the challenge is being engineered out by the equipment! I ride because it is challenging, so there's a threshold at which a more capable bike just feels like cheating. Combine that with dumbed-down trails and you might as well push for a Zwift trail VR "experience" sans mosquitoes and actual effort. Is that what's driving us?

Get off my lawn!

Edited by mack_turtle
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36 minutes ago, CBaron said:

Trek Stache, one of the most versatile and fun hardtail you can own, especially so if its going to be your primary bike,

-CJB

I am very intrigued by this bike, but if I replace my FS with a Stache, I worry about taking some of the bigger drops on it because I'm just not that smooth.  I once took my Monocog with a 80mm fork down the bigger drop on Picnic X, and it wasn't much fun.

With the all the time I am spending posting on here, I should have just gone and demoed some bikes! 

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6 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

Interesting- I've never ridden a motorcycle, on or off road, and don't have a desire to do so. So much of "progress" in bicycle design is pushing them toward handling more like motorbikes, sometimes no stopping at putting a motor on it. But pedal powered bikes are still often becoming more Moto. This works for some people, especially those with a Moto background.

As I spent 20 years riding BMX, this is the opposite of what I want in a bike. I don't want a bike that inspires me to plow over everything but a bicycle that handles like an extension of myself. It's hard to explain, but the way people talk about riding the new generation of bikes just sounds boring to me.

I read on some forum a while back someone who was complaining that the new LLS bikes he had ridden felt like he could not throw them around, and it was hard to lift the front tire, to which someone replied ( I kid you not) "you don't have to." I read on and he implyed that newer bikes are so advanced and plush that you don't need skill, strength, technique, or finesse to ride a technical trail, just sit and pedal and let all the suspension do all the work.

I know that's hyperbolic but I almost choked when I read that. Impudent strumpet! How f-ing BORING to engage in activity where the challenge is being engineered out by the equipment! Combine that with dumbed-down trails and you might as well push for a Zwift trail VR "experience" sans mosquitoes and actual effort. Is that what's driving us?

Get off my lawn!

I am with you and it appears my lawn is very similar to yours (although mine probably has a lot more weeds).  Looks like I am not getting a new bike.  Mere 24 hours ago when I created my account, I was so happy about the prospect of buying a new bike.  I guess I better go hug my kids or find some other way to feel happy.

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1 minute ago, mack_turtle said:

I always hear about demos, and it seems like those are very few and far between. Or are they more often than I think?

They're a little hard to come by for free, that's for sure. And even harder to come by if it's an obscure bike. Take the RM Thunderbolt for example. Bicycle World promised they'd get me one in at the start of the year for a demo, but I only heard crickets. And now the time for me to demo has come and gone. 

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Buy it. Do it. Buy it.

If you buy a new FS (even a pure XC bike) these days will have a slacker HTA than 68*. Why obsess over whether this trend lends itself to our geographic region or not? 

I was going to sum it up with the same words as Motopail. Confidence inspiring.

Now, go buy a big, plush, slack bike, slam it into some rocks, and remember how much fun it is to ride a bike. 

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33 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

I always hear about demos, and it seems like those are very few and far between. Or are they more often than I think?

 

Bicycle World is hosting a Rocky Mtn Bikes one soon, I think.

http://www.bikes.com/en/dealers

 

You also have to keep an eye out for them - sometimes they're not well advertised.   This year has also been hit or miss on them having one due to rain:

Scott demo back in Dec at Walnut, but had to be cancelled.   

Giant demo mid-Dec, also had to be cancelled due to wet trails.  

Pivot demo in early Jan at Flat Creek which I think they had.   

Yeti demo back in the fall months, don't recall what happened there.  

Rocky Mountain having a demo at Spider Mountain soon I think I saw?

In general, I'd much rather just pay for a demo from a shop so I can take the bike out to different trails and spend as much time as I want testing things out.  At the events, the bikes aren't always in the best shape (given that it's 1-2 guys responsible for driving on a tight schedule AND keeping the bikes up, I don't really blame them too much), and there will always be someone who will take the popular bike out for an entire ride (2+ hours) instead of a short 30-45 minute test so others actually have a shot at testing.   There was one particular model bike I wanted to try at one of them and I was next in line, and I hung around for 2.5 hours for it to come back before I finally left.  

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45 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

How f-ing BORING to engage in activity where the challenge is being engineered out by the equipment! I ride because it is challenging, so there's a threshold at which a more capable bike just feels like cheating.

Interesting post mack_turtle. And I agree (for all the very little I know), but where is that threshold? You could argue that FS bikes make riding over technical stuff much easier than HT. And a suspension fork on a HT easier than rigid fork, etc.  Is changing the tire/wheel sizes and frame angles/lengths any more radical than adding suspension to bikes? Probably not. But it all adds up to "easier" I suppose.  What's the next evolution? electronic assists, auto-adjusting suspensions of some sort, gyros?  

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3 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

I always hear about demos, and it seems like those are very few and far between. Or are they more often than I think?

 

Bicycle World is hosting a Rocky Mtn Bikes one soon, I think.

http://www.bikes.com/en/dealers

 

you demo by renting bikes. If you structure it right you can get 2 rides on a rental bike and pay for one day.

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3 hours ago, loop_out said:

I am very intrigued by this bike, but if I replace my FS with a Stache, I worry about taking some of the bigger drops on it because I'm just not that smooth.  I once took my Monocog with a 80mm fork down the bigger drop on Picnic X, and it wasn't much fun.

With the all the time I am spending posting on here, I should have just gone and demoed some bikes! 

I rented a Stache from BSS for $57 for two days of riding on the Greenbelt.  It's a hardtail so I thought I wasn't going to huck it off any drops but it really is damn capable of doing it.  It was so much fun, I bought a used one the next week!  I've been riding it exclusively since then because the it has been muddy and it's a fun bike to just plow around the hike and bike trails.

That being said, I think that I will still prefer to ride my full suspension bike when there are drops and fast downhill stuff.  Low pressure, 3" tires take out the small rocks and roots but there is only so much they can do.  The 'whooosh' feeling of having 160 mm take a hit is something I can't do without.

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16 hours ago, aki aki said:

... where is that threshold?  

That's different for everyone, I suppose. For my riding ability and the terrain I ride, I ride a very simple bike. I have adopted several modern technologies but rejected others. I also use sophisticated versions of simple things. I take the Amish approach- does a technology really add to my experience, or just make it more complicated and expensive? For my purposes, plush suspension, electric bits, space-age polymers, etc don't make riding more fun, so I don't waste my money on them. A steel frame that fits me, hassle-free hydraulic brakes, tubeless tires, a singlespeed drivetrain, a well-made rear hub, and a suspension fork that I can service at home are worthwhile. I am still on the fence about dropper posts.

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37 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

For my purposes, plush suspension, electric bits, space-age polymers, etc don't make riding more fun, so I don't waste my money on them. A steel frame that fits me, hassle-free hydraulic brakes, tubeless tires, a singlespeed drivetrain, a well-made rear hub, and a suspension fork that I can service at home are worthwhile. I am still on the fence about dropper posts.

Agreed until the dropper post. Those things are amazing. Even a minimalist SSer can love them. I still have my full squish, but more and more as of late I find myself choosing simple fun over plush speed.

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2 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

That's different for everyone, I suppose. For my riding ability and the terrain I ride, I ride a very simple bike. I have adopted several modern technologies but rejected others. I also use sophisticated versions of simple things. I take the Amish approach- does a technology really add to my experience, or just make it more complicated and expensive? For my purposes, plush suspension, electric bits, space-age polymers, etc don't make riding more fun, so I don't waste my money on them. A steel frame that fits me, hassle-free hydraulic brakes, tubeless tires, a singlespeed drivetrain, a well-made rear hub, and a suspension fork that I can service at home are worthwhile. I am still on the fence about dropper posts.

light weight adds to my experience. When I put the bike in my truck, need to hike a bike, or lift it to hang on the wall, I appreciate it being 23 pounds instead of 30 or 35 pounds. This means all the tech that makes it lighter, but just as strong is good.

Carbon wheels means the wheels can stay true for years

Carbon frame is lighter for equivalent strength

higher end parts are also lighter

Fat heavy tires are a trend that I cant comprehend.

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If some part of a person's goal is fitness, then, pedaling and lifting more weight to store the bike would be a better workout, wouldn't it? :classic_rolleyes:

At least that is the best excuse I have for only riding long travel full squishy bikes for the past fifteen years or so. (rode a mid travel Salsa Big Mama for a while, but it got sketchy on fast descents when it ran out of travel. Now it hangs lonely and forgotten on the shop wall.)

But, I'm old, tall, heavy, and came into MTB from a dirt bike background where I'd learned to appreciate the effects of lots of squish as Moto suspension and handling vastly improved over the decades from when I initially transitioned from bicycle trail riding to motorcycle trail riding in the 70's. 

I'd rather have ten extra pounds on the bike in components needed to provide this benefit and focus on losing ten (or more) pounds of body weight by pedaling to compensate, than suffer the ride a hardtail frame provided me back in the 90's. I really started riding longer distances on trails only after converting to a full suspension bike. My rides are rarely under two hours long and are usually done on weekends.

If a person's average ride is an hour or so after work, and, they can spend a lot of that time out of the saddle, a hardtail might be a great fit. Different strokes for different folks. Gotta take into consideration how you will use the bike to best select the right one.

Edited by Ridenfool
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On 2/5/2019 at 8:05 AM, csmceuen said:

I did roughly the same thing a few years back and decided I needed to get something as lls as I possibly could in my price range. A capra at this point in time. I got the bike and I loved it. I could smash down trails and I could acceptably ride it up technical bits. As I got further down the road I realized more and more that is was no longer that much fun to ride it up a hill and I started to ride less and less as I did not find mush enjoyment in the regular trails. I was only enjoying the stuff that used to scare me since that was now the only thing that provided some challenge. I wound up not riding for 3 months and realized something had to change and I went back out demoing bikes only a year later. Settled on a Process 111 which still was decently lls, but reasonably so and complimented our local trails much better. I started enjoying riding more again after this purchase and I can completely attribute it to having a bike that fit our trails and less so current trends.

I personally do not feel that the current drastic trends in bikes are really suited to our local trails. There are exceptions of course, but your usual GB, Brushy, 4c ride is alot more fun on a bike with a bit more of a conservative geo. Those long bikes are a pain to pedal uphill and even more so to muscle around some of our wonderful switchbacks.

The real answer is demo demo demo, but the best answer is just get 3 bikes. SS hardtail, 120-130mm trail bike and your 170mm LLS Beast of a mini dh.

 

Thank you very much for providing this point of view. I feel like so many times people have a 'confirmation bias' based on what they have decided to buy-into.  I.e...what they are currently riding IS THE BEST THING EVER, largely based on the fact that they are committed to the purchase.  However, you have made that purchase, even liked the bike, but then realized the effect of your choice and then pivoted to something different.  IMHO, this gives your perspective so much value and credence in my book.  And I think you explained it very well too.

 

 

22 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

Interesting- I've never ridden a motorcycle, on or off road, and don't have a desire to do so. So much of "progress" in bicycle design is pushing them toward handling more like motorbikes, sometimes not stopping at putting a motor on it. But pedal powered bikes are still often becoming more Moto. This works for some people, especially those with a Moto background.

As I spent 20 years riding BMX, this is the opposite of what I want in a bike. I don't want a bike that inspires me to plow over everything but a bicycle that handles like an extension of myself. It's hard to explain, but the way people talk about riding the new generation of bikes just sounds boring to me.

I read on some forum a while back someone who was complaining that the new LLS bikes he had ridden felt like he could not throw them around, and it was hard to lift the front tire, to which someone replied ( I kid you not) "you don't have to." I read on and he implyed that newer bikes are so advanced and plush that you don't need skill, strength, technique, or finesse to ride a technical trail, just sit and pedal and let all the suspension do all the work.

I know that's hyperbolic but I almost choked when I read that. Impudent strumpet! How f-ing BORING to engage in activity where the challenge is being engineered out by the equipment! I ride because it is challenging, so there's a threshold at which a more capable bike just feels like cheating. Combine that with dumbed-down trails and you might as well push for a Zwift trail VR "experience" sans mosquitoes and actual effort. Is that what's driving us?

Get off my lawn!

 

5 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

That's different for everyone, I suppose. For my riding ability and the terrain I ride, I ride a very simple bike. I have adopted several modern technologies but rejected others. I also use sophisticated versions of simple things. I take the Amish approach- does a technology really add to my experience, or just make it more complicated and expensive? For my purposes, plush suspension, electric bits, space-age polymers, etc don't make riding more fun, so I don't waste my money on them. A steel frame that fits me, hassle-free hydraulic brakes, tubeless tires, a singlespeed drivetrain, a well-made rear hub, and a suspension fork that I can service at home are worthwhile. I am still on the fence about dropper posts.

 

@mack_turtle I'm quoting both of your comments because they go hand-in-hand.  I'm always intrigued by demographics of riders and how they (we) subdivide into the things we all like or not.  There are times when I'm with a group of riders and I'm the only hardtail guy in the bunch (usually on ride in spandex too).  Then there are other times when I'm with my normal riding buddies and we are all on hardtails and between (4-5 of) us there may be only 1 dropper post.  How we view riding, the rhythm with how we approach the single track, whether we ride to the trail or not, etc.. Its very interesting how we clump together.

Your comment about riding a simple bike and taking and almost Amish approach to it resonates with me strongly.  My co-worker and I were just recently discussing the GG carbon modular bike and I was lauding it for all of the innovation.  However, at the same time I was mentioning that it really just doesn't appeal to ME as a ride.  I find all the 'features' to be a bit garish....built in loop strap for your tool bad, a downtube length cover so you don't have to break open your cabling, modular flip feature in the head tube, etc...are all innovative but just a bit clunkish for my taste.  I gravitate more towards simple.  I love the efficiency of my hardtail.  I'm attracted to the lack of monkey-motion because there are no pivots, bearings, linkages, air shock, dampening, flex, etc.  You get on it and pedal; it responds always and in the same manner.  And I appreciate the elegance of a double diamond frame that has 2 water bottle cages.

Do I push my style and preferences on others?  Rarely.  After owning a bike shop and interacting with numerous higher-end customers over the years, its very obvious that we all have different tastes and predilections.  It would be not unlike arguing the merits of white versus red wine?  In the end, you still get a buzz while appreciating the craft that went into making it.

Good thread!  As a former frame builder, I've enjoyed reading everyone's take on this subject.

-CJB

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This thread strikes a chord with me, especially lately.

Starting on BMX/freestyle in the 80's, then moving to mtb in '88, I've had the luxury of experiencing all of the riding disciplines, trends, fads, tech, etc; all of "the emporer's new clothes"... I've also become very tuned to my own "style" and riding preferences over that time. I'm always open to trying new things (within reason, some things are clearly gimmicks or just aren't aimed at me); some I adopt, some don't make it beyond a test ride.

In my earlier years, I preferred bikes to be as playful as possible, as I was like a pinball, bouncing from side to side down a trail, turning every hump, log, root etc into a feature, bunnyhopping "all the things", etc, so as a result, I trended toward smaller frames, usually a size or two "too small" for me (at 5-10 I've owned several 16" frames). I liked things simple and easy, and I steered away from suspension for a long time because I felt it dulled the ride, input and feedback. Little by little though, my frames grew, suspension travel got longer, and I got sucked into the wormhole of complexity and tuning, as well as the LLS trend...

FWIW, I also rode dirt bikes during much of this time...

Long, Low, Slack...

One thing that has changed for me over the years is free time and physical condition; it has shown me what I enjoy most in a ride, which is descending and tech. I'd rather not be bothered with too much pointless pedaling, other than what is needed to reach the beginning of a fun descent (although if I do have to climb, I prefer it to be technical). I don't care about comfort or efficiency on the climb, as long as I make it to the top. For pure descending speed, I've found the longer, lower, and slacker I go, the "better", but speed is only a small part of what I enjoyed, and I only spend a few days a year on extended, fast downhills, the rest was making the most of trails around here. Longer bikes, while stable at speed, tend to feel like a handful; the longer they are (combined with low and slack), the more they fight your input (the same trait that makes them stable at speed), are pigs in tight turns and maneuvers, and they exaggerate the low bottom brackets that tend to come with them with pedal strikes and gouged chains (if you like ledges and rock gardens, like me). Likewise, slack head angles also add to the stability, make the steeps less puckering and soften input mistakes... however, it also increases your wheelbase which, combined with "long and low", makes slower, tighter, technical trails even more of a challenge... The low BB adds to stability as well, and low COG makes cornering at speed more fun, but things like wheelies, manuals and bunnyhops require more energy and input.

Another new trend is steep seat tube angles; while many claim to love it, I hated it, so much so that I sold what I thought was my dream frame (Nukeproof Mega) in only 8 months of owning it. The climbing advantage was minimal, and I didn't like the seat location in relation to the BB while standing; it always felt in the way, whether up or down, and I found myself dropping the seat more often.

So, for my personal preferences and the riding I do most, I've backed off the LLS trend a little, and settled on a medium (17-18") frame, long-ish, low-ish, but still pretty slack (at 5-10, I like 425-430mm stays, 435-445 reach, 64.5-66* HA ("effective"/sagged for a hardtail), and BB drop depends on a few factors. With this reach range, I'll run a 32-45mm stem and 780-790 bars. I've found this geo mild/small enough at my height to be maneuverable, fun and "poppy" enough around here, while still being a blast when I head to the mountains and bike parks.

Simplicity vs... not

Now I'm finding myself at a stage in life where I'm craving a reset; I miss the days of simplicity, when the ride mattered more than what I rode, and I find myself frustrated with constantly having to mess with shocks, linkage, tuning, hydraulics, maintenance, repair, etc... I'm tired of playing musical frames/musical shocks, getting the tuning right, etc, and am finding that I enjoy my smaller, all-mountain SS hardtail (although it isn't a SS at the moment) with BB7 mech brakes more and more, and I'm even considering switching to BB7s on my 6" FS (gasp, I know). The HT is always ready to go, always right, never a headache, and in many ways, more fun... I manipulate the trail more, I have to work to keep things smooth and graceful, and while this does require more effort and energy, it's also what makes riding fun, as I'm more involved in the ride as opposed to plowing over everything in a straight line, letting the suspension to all the work. This epiphany has recently come to a head, and I'm currently working on a new experiment: a custom steel hardtail, taking what I love most about both of my bikes, and merging it into a simple, low maintenance, do-it-all hardtail that I can ride more than I wrench...

 

Edited by gotdurt
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