Hardtail setup options

[mack_turtle]

When you say "stiff" do you mean the way the air springs and damper work, or the way the fork flexes? I was amazed one day while when, riding pavement and tapping my front brake at how much the fork bends under me like it's trying to bend, not telescope. I'll bet it looks like a wet noodle in slow-motion. This is why I would want a fork with a stiffer chassis (34mm stachions might have this affect) for anything over 120 or even 100mm.

Edited March 25, 2019 by mack_turtle

[ATXZJ]

Yes, they can deflect/flex and side load the bushings causing quite a bit of stiction resulting in poor ride quality. I'm around 200# geared and ride like im falling down stairs, and the 120mm reba was dying under me. Switching to a pike made a big difference in ride quality and I felt more confident when going off drops etc.

My 2c would be to franken fork something with a short offset CSU and add a 2* works headset when money allows. Until then, just do basic rockshox service kit on the reba. You can play with the oil weights on the damper side if you want to fiddle with it.

Oh, and I have 2 daughters and they're thankfully old enough now that'll ill never have to see disneyland again.

 

 

 

 

[mack_turtle]

Interesting data point. I am 40 pounds lighter than you and I'd like to think I am somewhat graceful on the bike. Maybe that's why I have not killed my Reba in the four years I have had it.

There's a bit of FOMO in my question. You never know what you're missing sometimes. For example, I borrowed someone's Salsa Timberjack the other day for a spin around Walnut. I immediately noticed that the fork had NO rebound damping. It was a pogo stick! I suspect the seal under the damper had failed and the damper oil was just sloshing around in the lowers. It was a newish bike and he later got it fixed, but he had been riding it like that for months because he didn't know what a good should feel like.

[csmceuen]

I bought a 150mm Pike for my Honzo ST with the intent of lowering it to 130, but decided to throw it onto the bike anyhow and ride it around for a bit. After one ride I realized I loved it. Would I love more with less travel? Not sure, but the longer fork made the fork dive on a HT less noticeable and I really appreciated the higher BB and slacker HT angle it supplied. Its way too much fork (maybe?) for a SS, but amazingly it still pedals perfectly and man is it a blast to point downhill. I would say give a 140 a try, but I think where you will really notice a difference is in a stiffer stanchions. I weight a little under 160 and would not have thought I would notice a huge difference in a 32 vs a 34+, but when you are hammering away on some rock chunk you certainly notice a feeling of being more planted at feel more comfortable in your line choices.

Edited March 25, 2019 by csmceuen
Steeper to Slacker HT

[Chief]

I run a 140 Yari on my HT works well for me.

[ATXZJ]

It seems most OEM shocks and forks are set up for people in the 160lb range so you two are in luck when it comes to that. There's quite a few people running the honzo at 150 but i never extended it more than 130mm.

3ft huck to flat with 120mm pike and the ramp control turned up:

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by ATXZJ

[Kyle]

36 minutes ago, ATXZJ said:

ramp control

I generally want to set and forget my stuff, but the ramp control on my MRP Ribbon was my gateway into tweaking stuff for the ride, and it makes a big difference.

[schoolie]

On 3/23/2019 at 1:25 PM, mack_turtle said:

140 seems like overkill for my riding, would chopper out the bike like whoa, and that would mean buying a new $$$ fork anyways. My approach to riding is to get away with the "least amount of bike" possible. I rode it rigid a few times lately and I am finding that's just no longer fun. 

Just throwing in my 2 cents here, since we seem to have similar preferences/experiences. I've ridden hardtails exclusively other than rentals and borrowing bikes here and there. I've got thousands of miles on an older Karate Monkey (the 72deg HTA version), set up rigid, and with an 80mm and 100mm Reba with a QR axle. More recently, I've been riding a Trek Stache, with a 120mm and now a 150mm fork.

Also, while I love understanding the minutiae of bike geo, suspension kinematics, etc. (I'm a hard core mechanical engineer), I'm laughably bad at noticing differences when it comes to actually riding the bike, so take my thoughts for what they're worth (maybe not much, lol). I'll pretty much ride whatever you put me on and have a good time as long as it's not breaking or requiring too much maintenance. 

Weight / riding style: 185 lbs. I ride hard, but would like to say I've got some finesse from all the miles riding rigid. I love tech and the big trialsy power moves you have to do to get through trails like Double Down at Brushy, but going fast downhill is pretty fun too :).

My thoughts on the KM: I started out rigid, then was installed the Reba in 80mm config. After a rebuild I lengthened it to 100mm. My main driver for putting the fork on was the Dragonslayer. I did one lap out there rigid and didn't think I'd survive 3, and I was probably right :). I ended up switching back to rigid after I got the Stache, and won't be going back. For me, the flexiness of the Reba was noticeable enough to make it not even worth having on my normal 1-2 hour rides. I've since converted the Monkey to SS and LOVE it. That bike gets better and better the more I take away. However, I'm not tough enough to have that be my only ride, it would not be fun on something like the Dragonslayer or any other all day event, at least that's what I'd say right now.

Thoughts on the Stache: I can't say enough good things about this bike, at least for a guy like me. The last few weeks have been especially positive. I switched from the stock chupacabra's (lots of small knobs) to some heavier tires with more aggressive knobs, and have loved the additional traction. I also switched from the stock 120mm Manitou Magnum to a 150mm Revelation. I was worried the bike would feel weird adding that much travel, but I haven't noticed anything negative yet. I installed the stem one spacer lower to keep the handlebars closer to the same height. So far, the higher quality fork has definitely outweighed any negative geometry changes. For reference, in the last two weeks on the Stache I've done 80+ miles in the greenbelt, kept up with my brother from CO on his long low slack mountain shredder at Spider Mtn, and had a blast the whole time :).

I guess long story short, I've found there's a bit of a dead zone on fork effectiveness, at least for me. The flexy, shorter travel Reba wasn't worth having, and the lower quality 120mm Magnum was meh. Rigid on the Monkey, and longer better fork on the Stache were both positive changes IMO.

[loop_out]

I'm not sure that I'm qualified to speak on this topic given that I've been riding a hard tail as my primary bike for all of 3 weeks, but I formed a firm opinion that 120mm Pike and 29X3 tires are what everyone should be running in the Austin area on their hard tails.  Like Schoolie, I can't overstate how much I like the Trek Stache - let's just say I love hitting the trails with my 4th grader, but lately, I've been ditching him so that I can ride the Stache on more interesting trails.  Go ahead and judge me - I don't care. 

I thought I would never go away from full suspension bikes, but I have not touched my 150/140mm trail bike since I got the Stache.  At this point, I would be happy with it as my only bike.  When I eventually make it out to Spider Mountain, I will most likely take the Stache instead of the FS bike. 

[CBaron]

17 minutes ago, loop_out said:

I'm not sure that I'm qualified to speak on this topic given that I've been riding a hard tail as my primary bike for all of 3 weeks, but I formed a firm opinion that 120mm Pike and 29X3 tires are what everyone should be running in the Austin area on their hard tails.  Like Schoolie, I can't overstate how much I like the Trek Stache - let's just say I love hitting the trails with my 4th grader, but lately, I've been ditching him so that I can ride the Stache on more interesting trails.  Go ahead and judge me - I don't care. 

I thought I would never go away from full suspension bikes, but I have not touched my 150/140mm trail bike since I got the Stache.  At this point, I would be happy with it as my only bike.  When I eventually make it out to Spider Mountain, I will most likely take the Stache instead of the FS bike. 

Those are all strong words.  But as a fellow Stache rider, I do agree its a great well-rounded machine.  TBH I hate that the word is getting out about my beloved Stache.  I've always enjoyed owning/riding stuff that is a little less known and more obscure.  But good is good...

-CJB

[loop_out]

44 minutes ago, CBaron said:

Those are all strong words.  But as a fellow Stache rider, I do agree its a great well-rounded machine.  TBH I hate that the word is getting out about my beloved Stache.  I've always enjoyed owning/riding stuff that is a little less known and more obscure.  But good is good...

-CJB

Of course, I don't *actually* believe that everyone should ride the setup I discussed.  With the Stache, I think I'm just happy because this is one of those rare occasions where a product totally exceeded my expectations.  This bike basically enhances everything I like to do on trails - technical climbs, popping off ledges, maneuvering through rock gardens, etc. 

Climbing traction was a given with the larger tires, but I am shocked by how nimble and flickable this bike is.  I still suck at manuals, but the longest intentional manual I've ever held was on this bike (I've had several longer unintentional manuals, where I am holding on for dear lifer before eventually looping out - usually initiated by poor landings).

I'd hate to contribute to making the Stache more mainstream, so I will throw this out.   I have a harder time leaning this bike over in fast corners.  I suspect this would not be the best bike for trails like Walnut or Peddlers, but it's more likely because I do not have the required skills.      

[mack_turtle]

I was into Stache before they went mainstream. Back when you could only get a vinyl Stache or a bootleg tape. Not it's all commercial and they sold out. You squares ruin everything.

[AustinBike]

I thought millennials ruined everything.

And you damn kids keep off my lawn.

[AntonioGG]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:57 AM, schoolie said:

Also, while I love understanding the minutiae of bike geo, suspension kinematics, etc. (I'm a hard core mechanical engineer), I'm laughably bad at noticing differences when it comes to actually riding the bike, so take my thoughts for what they're worth (maybe not much, lol). I'll pretty much ride whatever you put me on and have a good time as long as it's not breaking or requiring too much maintenance. 

I'm the opposite.  IDGAF as to the geo of a bike, but I notice the subtleties when I ride them or when I make suspension setup changes or some cockpit change.  Which is weird because I'm generally obsessive when it comes to technical things (I'm bi-curious:  a EE with ME aspirations).  Same with wine, I know what tastes good, don't care where it's from how much it costs or all the terms to describe it.

[mack_turtle]

15 hours ago, AustinBike said:

I thought millennials ruined everything.

And you damn kids keep off my lawn.

Every time a Boomer buys an e-mtb, a millennial adds a year of to his/her target retirement age.

Edited March 26, 2019 by mack_turtle

[Cafeend]

I have a Ventana El Commandante running the Reba 120. This is the recommendation from Ventana. I am wondering why bike company have a recommended shock like this. Like this bike should run a 120..or 140 or 150. Is it because running a 140 on a frame that's recommended to have 120 changes the geometry? Who cares? Curious why this is.
What happens if I put 140 on this bike?


Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[schoolie]

Yes, it changes the geometry. but that's not necessarily bad, it's just different than the manufacturer's design.

Generally speaking when you increase travel (axle-crown distance is what really matters, but they're closely related), you slacken the head angle and raise the BB. Reach goes down a bit, and stack goes up a bit, but that can easily be compensated by swapping stem/spacers, etc. Slacker head angle is generally more stable at speed, but can be "floppy" at low speed.

Eventually, if you add enough travel you'll void the frame warranty. I'm pretty sure that's because the increased HTA applies a bigger bending moment to the head tube, potentially overloading it.

[Anita Handle]

4 hours ago, schoolie said:

 

Eventually, if you add enough travel you'll void the frame warranty. I'm pretty sure that's because the increased HTA applies a bigger bending moment to the head tube, potentially overloading it.

Yes, this. Bikes already love breaking at the headtube. Throw a much longer fork than your Ventana was designed for and go do some drops, the headtube will be aching to rip itself from the rest of the frame.

[mack_turtle]

I can see my Reba 120 with 32mm stanchions flex like mad when I tap the front brake. It also has a fair amount of stiction no matter how carefully lubed up it is. I wonder if to what degree the flex and stiction are due to:

A. The design of the fork squishy bits,

B. The structure of the fork crown, stanchions, etc.

C. The head tube angle of the frame, since the closer the angle is to 90°, the more horizontal the force put on it by impacts.

(I tried to make a video of this for grins just now, but it turns out that slow-motion video in the dark with only LED driveway lights creates a crazy strobe effect!)

[AntonioGG]

13 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

(I tried to make a video of this for grins just now, but it turns out that slow-motion video in the dark with only LED driveway lights creates a crazy strobe effect!)

Fluorescents will cause trouble too.  IR gate tachometers also need either sunlight or incandescent light.

[mack_turtle]

This guy's video illustrates the point well: 

That is basically what I wanted to film.

Next I want to see a RS 32mm fork compared to a 34mm fork. Or just put a fat tire on my rigid fork and call it a day! 

[ATXZJ]

This'll make you feel better then

 

[AntonioGG]

Wow!  The "fork" flexes a ton on some of those bikes. Since on some others it seems the flex is less, am I really noticing the frame flexing?  Also, check out the handlebar flex.  Pretty cool video.

[CBaron]

16 minutes ago, AntonioGG said:

Wow!  The "fork" flexes a ton on some of those bikes. Since on some others it seems the flex is less, am I really noticing the frame flexing?  Also, check out the handlebar flex.  Pretty cool video.

Yes, that video came out a few months ago and I feel like I watch it almost like (bike) porn.  Can't recall exactly which bike it was, but one of them actually *sparks* the stanchion on the rear shock during compression!  I've prolly watched it 4-5 times...

-CJB

[schoolie]

11 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

I can see my Reba 120 with 32mm stanchions flex like mad when I tap the front brake.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'd say fork deflection under braking is even more noticeable on the rigid fork on my Karate Monkey, since there's no telescoping motion to confuse your eyes about what's really happening. It's pretty crazy how much things move around under load on a bike.

I wonder if to what degree the flex and stiction are due to:

A. The design of the fork squishy bits,

B. The structure of the fork crown, stanchions, etc.

C. The head tube angle of the frame, since the closer the angle is to 90°, the more horizontal the force put on it by impacts.

I'd say it's mostly B. Bushing fit/alignment to the stanchions is important, and any clearance or misalignment due to bending causes the bushings to "stick" to the stanchions more than when things are perfectly lined up. There's definitely a bit of A too, since seal design in the air spring (and damper to a lesser extent) has an impact on initial breakaway force of the fork.

Higher end forks often have tighter tolerances on the bushings, so there's less room for things to move around. Rebuild services like Push Industries also offer to replace your bushings with ones selected to fit your stanchions exactly, instead of the random distribution that come from the factory (at least used to, haven't paid attention in a while). This gets the "undeflected" alignment as good as it can be.

Once things get loaded up and start bending, the bushings are forced against the stanchions, making it harder for the fork to slide. Imagine compressing the fork with a load directly inline with the fork's travel - there's theoretically no load on the bushings, so you're only overcoming the friction of the seals. Now twist the front wheel real hard and do it again - the bushings are loaded up by the flex of the fork, so the fork feels stiffer.

11 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

Or just put a fat tire on my rigid fork and call it a day! 

This is a very valid answer, depending on how/where you like to ride. I run a 2.6 rekon on i35 rims on my KM, and it's a pretty good option if you're not trying to be the fastest guy through the rough stuff.