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Garmin InReach/SPOT rant


June Bug
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On 7/28/2023 at 8:20 AM, bear said:

I'm wary of things like the Defy because they don't seem to be functional at all without the smartphone, for interactive activities.

Motorola Defy is available and the reports are not good.  The consensus is that it was released too soon, without sufficient testing and tech support is, "Try this. It might work.  No? OK, how about this?"  

Many people report that set up is not easy.  Also, get this, it won't work in heavy tree cover or in canyons.  You need a fairly clear view to the south, because it's trying to lock in on a geostationary satellite.  We're not spending $$$ for something dicey.

Anyway, I do have a question for the hive mind.  Our phones (Moto G Power, Android) are GPS enabled. We've had two episodes this summer where we got separated on a trail system and didn't have cell service to sort things out.  It is possible to download an app like TrailForks or mtbproject, and it can track where you are even if you're out of cell phone range.  What I want to know is, is there a way to track another cell phone's location (Android, not Apple) on one of these apps?

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Trailforks allows you to download the region (at the state level) before you ride. I keep Texas, Arkansas, California, and New Mexico on my phone. If you have no cell coverage, you can still see your location via the GPS and still navigate on the maps. It is great. The maps do not take up a lot of space on your phone. But you cannot download the map if you do not have a data connection, so go do that now.

If you happen to be in an area where you have not downloaded the maps you *might* be ok because it *should* be caching the direct local area, but because I have downloaded maps I can't say for sure. The best way to test is put your phone in airplane mode now and see what navigating different trails looks like.

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16 hours ago, June Bug said:

It is possible to download an app like TrailForks or mtbproject, and it can track where you are even if you're out of cell phone range.  What I want to know is, is there a way to track another cell phone's location (Android, not Apple) on one of these apps?

Unfortunately No. The phone will act independently and show you where YOU are on a predownloaded map but it is only a GPS RECEIVER. It's only ability to SEND data is via Cell, Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. Theoretically if you were close enough to see each other over peer-to-peer Wi-Fi/Bluetooth, you will probably be within earshot. 

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 I've used Ride With GPS off line in airplane mode and it was great.  

I've been contemplating TrailForks, so will do.  

 @RedRider3141, thanks for that clarification. 

In the meantime, we've made a commitment to stay together, really together, while riding.  

We each had cell phones, but had service in different spots at different times. 

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4 hours ago, June Bug said:

I've been contemplating TrailForks, so will do.  

I should say, I've been using an old Cell with no service for both Strava and TrailForks offline. It works great, I make sure to boot it up at home on Wi-Fi and load any maps I need. This weekend I did an event at Flat Rock and used a Mobile Hotspot from my current cell that has service, just long enough for it to figure out the apps and then shut it off for the whole event. It records just fine, but I don't get live segments 🤷‍♂️

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  • 5 months later...
On 9/17/2023 at 5:48 PM, June Bug said:

Motorola Defy is available and the reports are not good.  The consensus is that it was released too soon, without sufficient testing and tech support is, "Try this. It might work.  No? OK, how about this?"  

Heh, reports are worse now that the company that was making the Defy device has died. 

Bullitt, the rugged manufacturer behind CAT and Motorola smartphones, is no more

"Bullitt, the manufacturer of rugged phones, has closed down due to intense competition in the smartphone market.   The company had ambitious plans for satellite-based text messaging, but the deal to transfer the satellite-focused portion of its company fell through."

Edited by June Bug
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  • 3 months later...

It's here! Well,  coming in Fall 2024.  Bikepacking.com: YOU’LL BE ABLE TO RECEIVE AND SEND TEXT MESSAGES VIA SATELLITE ON [Apple] IOS 18

"Yesterday in Cupertino, California, Apple introduced iOS 18, its latest iPhone/mobile operating system. With the new release comes a major upgrade to the Emergency SOS functionality that’s currently available on the latest iPhones. The enhancements include the ability to send and receive SMS and text messages via satellite without a Wi-Fi or cellular connection. This is great news for folks who typically rely on devices such as the Garmin inReach or SPOT for off-grid communication. Here’s the official statement from Apple:

“iOS 18 introduces Messages via satellite for the times when cellular and Wi-Fi connections aren’t available. Powered by the same groundbreaking technology as existing iPhone satellite capabilities, Messages via satellite automatically prompts users to connect to their nearest satellite right from the Messages app to send and receive texts, emoji, and Tapbacks over iMessage and SMS.3 With Dynamic Island, users always know when they are connected to a satellite. Because iMessage was built to protect user privacy, iMessages sent via satellite are end-to-end encrypted.”

Edited by June Bug
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Yes, I saw this the other day and was pretty excited about it. I figured it was coming eventually. The only down side is that it will not be available until the fall and I have a month-long trip to CA where I will be in the mountains a bunch in places with no signal. I am not that confident about running a beta OS to get that functionality but that may be my best choice. It's quite a sliding scale. On one hand I could have satellite connectivity for my phone, but on the other hand I have to weigh that against phone problems on the trip.

I'll be watching the beta forums to see how the service is working and then make the call before heading out.

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Just found out that the beta iOS 18 device will only send satellite messages to another iPhone that is also running iOS 18 so that is a bridge too far for this summer California trip. There is no way I want both of our phones on beta software with 3 days on the road each way.

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Interesting product. I chose a Garmin 840 but did not go with the solar option because it did not seem to add much time to the battery vs. the drawback of the solar panel being the screen. That left the solar versions with a much harder screen to read. I'd take the bigger size to get the solar function without compromising the screen.  I am skeptical of the dial, it looks like something that could get hit a lot in mountain biking.

I think this would be one to look into in the future when my 840 is near the end.

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Outside mag's thoughts about replacing PLB's  with IPhone. 

Satellite Texting Is Coming to the iPhone. Do I Still Need My inReach?   Apple’s new iOS 18 update allows its products to work off-grid. But are phones a suitable replacement for purpose-built backcountry communication tools?

A top end IPhone may be in my future.  I was in the middle-of-nowhere on the San Juan River in southeastern Utah in May.  A woman in our group with an IPhone had enough coverage to call and chat with her husband.  It was amazing considering that we were in a canyon. 

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Yeah, that was an excellent article for cutting through the hype.

It really boils down to the use cases. Hoss is out doing the Tour Divide so relying on a phone is a fool's errand, he needs a dedicated unit like a Garmin. I will be doing the occasional jaunt outside of cell coverage, so a phone would be perfect for me.

The portable GPS market is like the camera market. For years, when I would travel the world, I carried a point and shoot camera. Then smartphones came out, but the camera still took better pictures. When the smartphone's capability surpassed the point and shoot camera capability, I ditched the camera, carrying one less device. But plenty of people still use cameras today, but their needs surpass mine, which are pretty basic.

GPS units will go the same way. I believe the market for individual devices will shrink, *a bit* because the number of people that owned them that did not need the full power of one of those dedicated devices is probably pretty small. It's not the cost of the device, it's the monthly service that kills it. You can justify spending $350 to make sure you are always safe, but when they stick their hand out and ask for another $10-20 month for that, you start looking at how often you actually use it.

I believe the real use case is a rugged device and the service plan is initiated by the device. You pay your $350 and you are done, until you need it. Activating it out on the trail has a $40-50 monthly cost, but it is a pay as you go. If you are stranded or injured, $50 is nominal, you'll pay it in a heartbeat. And then if the device sits around for the next 11 months, you're fine.

However, I do not believe that a business model like that is tenable, I think you need a more regular revenue stream, even if it is smaller. It is really difficult to manage a spiky revenue stream.

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14 hours ago, CBaron said:

Nice basic article.  I've been looking for a new-to-me iPhone.  Looks like I should at least be trying to snag a 14 or better (I've been looking at 13's)

Thanks
CJB

Yes, do not get anything under a 14 based on the satellite capability of the 14 and beyond for satellite communication. 

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As a T-mobile subscriber I am thrilled by this. As a person who actually likes democracy I am terrified by this. Startlink is owned by Musk and at this point I won't have anything to do with the person who is trying (and generally succeeding) to dismantle democracy. The current shitshow in Washington tells me that I don't want to be an enabler in any way.

I'll stick with the more limited Apple functionality. It works for sending messages, which is all I need. Overall internet access is limited but I download trailforks maps so that I don't need connectivity. I just want a way to communicate with people in an emergency and Apple allows for that.

A couple more years and this will be even more integrated/functional with the cell providers, that is the direction it is all heading.

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I've tested the Apple satellite texting functionality in the backcountry, and it certainly works - slow, but it does the job. I do have a Starlink system at my Colorado home, because the internet goes down so much there. As appalling as Musk is, it's sad - and hard -  to admit that his shit actually works rather well.

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