zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Just to confirm, this logo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamsloan Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Bingo, I'm assuming all this has been approved by ARR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, Teamsloan said: Bingo, I'm assuming all this has been approved by ARR? Nope. That's why I hadn't included the ARR logo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, The Tip said: Not the best option. These two entities are regarded as the enemy. The ARR logo would be much more persuasive to a mountain biker. Those are the two entities that "govern" at this particular park. So it seems appropriate their logos should be used if the intent is to get attention. How about this, with the ARR logo included, assuming the powers that be with ARR are ok with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Not to nit pick (but this is the internet after all) but I think you're focusing in the wrong direction. The bonewipe that is doing this a.) probably doesn't believe that what they are doing is "unauthorized trail" and b.) doesn't really grasp what "prohibited" means. For instance they might think that if they are caught they'll have to go put the branches back up. I'm a fan of: "Hey, you, the guy cutting cheater lines. This type of trail modification may result in bikes being banned on the trails. Stop it now. <ARR logo>" Somehow you need to get the point across that this is not about them getting caught doing something unauthorized and that the punishment hits the whole community. Right now my guess is that they view it as a "victimless crime" and that nothing will come of their work. We need to help them understand the ramifications. The APR and BCP logos actually detract and may have the opposite effect for you. This should be bikers telling bikers to cut it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) People who create B trails are probably aware that they are doing something that at best is frowned at, and at worse illegal. But they do it anyway. The key to signage working is targeting the underlying driver/motivation. Just look at billboards and you'll see 99% of them are poor signage as they target the advertiser's desired messaging and not the mindset of the consumer. In the above sign, the word "...Establishment..." is used right up front. That smacks of the haughty/pompous government speak/disposition and will immediately cause a divisive attitude in the minds of those who are set on creating alternate trail sections. Using simpler language is usually less confrontational... And more clearly to the specific point. Maybe something like... "Cutting Cheater Lines Will Get This Trail Closed By Park Authority" Might work better. "...Cutting Cheater..." identifies what is actually being done, and insults those who ride these unauthorized lines. And most mountain bikers don't like to be insulted. "...Will Get This Trail Closed..." identifies what users don't want to happen... And identifies those who cut cheater lines as being enemies of those who don't want the trail to risk being closed. Now some riders might not know what a cheater line is... But I'm sure most who ride at Emma Long do know... And those who don't, when they see the sign, will be curious enough to ask. And most mountain bikers that I've come across want to be considered a member of the wider mtb community... Which means not being — or doing — something against it. Wow... Check that out... While I was writing the above I see that AustinBike was kind of thinking the same thing. Edited December 16, 2019 by RidingAgain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Great suggestions! 👍 How about this? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 So, who best to contact with ARR regarding the ARR logo being used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tip Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Much better. Minor suggestion: "Get this park closed to us." "Us" to convey it's we fellow, on your side, mountain bikers trying to tell the "helper" this. Also change "can" to "will." There is no doubt there. Stronger statement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) I'm not sure "...New Trail..." is specific enough. "...Cheater Lines..." and "...Kicked Out..." have a synergy. And maybe keep all three logos, but small... As you don't want it to become an ownership thing. As The Tip said... "...convey it's we fellow, on your side, mountain bikers trying to tell the "helper" this." Edited December 16, 2019 by RidingAgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxagent Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Making signs with the ARR logo should be approved by ARR - and it may take a few days. I predict it would be approved. Any of those signs are fine with me. We can argue forever about wording. Personally I like the wording of "Building / riding new trail will get the park closed. Stay on the existing trail!" Professional 'sign makers' say to tell people what they should do, not what they should not do. They would say the sign should be "Stay on the trail" and nothing more. Their argument is that you cannot list EVERYTHING they should not do and you want to make a positive statement. There is some truth to both arguments. But they don't match my experience. It has to be specific, to the point and get people's' attention. My opinion is to put all three logos on the sign. Maybe even add AMSA & CTTA. It shows that all relevant organizations are saying the same thing. But that is just my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, zrx24 said: "Altering trail" is probably better. Some people will think cheater lines are "existing trail". And getting kicked out sounds like a one time thing (yeah, we've all been kicked out of a bar and then went back in the future, right?) Altering trails will get bikes permanently banned from this park. Don't do it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cxagent Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I like AustinBikes's suggestion above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Thanks, ya'll. I really appreciate the input. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARR Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Been sent to the Board of Directors to see if there are any objections Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 17 hours ago, AustinBike said: "Altering trail" is probably better. Some people will think cheater lines are "existing trail". And getting kicked out sounds like a one time thing (yeah, we've all been kicked out of a bar and then went back in the future, right?) Altering trails will get bikes permanently banned from this park. Don't do it! I think "Altering trails will get bikes permanently banned from this park. Don't do it!" is the best message. And put at bottom of the sign 'For more info or to help with trail maintenance, www.austinridgeriders.com.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 I'm liking this rendition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Again, not to get too specific, but what is this saying to the person doing the cutting? Trail closure? For a weekend? For a month? For motos? For bikes? All the trail? Part of the trail? Still too nebulous in my mind. Think about the message (I'm in marketing, it's my job): 1. Identify the bonewipe here (i.e. the person doing the cutting) 2. Specify EXACTLY what is wrong (i.e. cutting cheater lines, not "new trail") 3. Explain what happens if they don't stop (i.e. WE lose access, forever.) "Altering trails will get bikes permanently banned from this park. " City park does get closed from time to time for Moto races or other things. Saying trail closure does not really specify what is at stake. Just my 2 cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tip Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, AustinBike said: "Altering trails will get bikes permanently banned from this park. " Yes. Hammer it home. Insure no ambiguity. "What YOU are doing will screw it up for ALL of us" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidingAgain Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) I'm with AustinBike... Signage is all about quickly connecting with what is in the mind of the person you're trying to communicate with. You need to go to where they are and walk them to where you want them to be, not stand where you are and tell them to come to you. And signs need to convey the message in as few words as possible. "...Altering..." is a weak word. And it can also be understood to mean that the existing trail has been altered in some minor way (a loose rock has been removed), and not that new trail has been cut. What is the problem? 1... For whatever reason, someone can't ride certain sections of trail and this bothers them. 2... This person sees an opportunity to overcome this by making/cutting a second line around the section they cannot ride. 3... This person does not see the land around the trail as off limit to them doing so; as far as they are concerned, all of the land is for and can accommodate trail building (or should be). 4... Because of this, this person has justified in their mind that what they are doing is perfectly acceptable to do. 5... This person might even go as far as to conclude that the people who built the existing trail with the sections that they can't ride were selfishly thinking of only one type of rider/riding experience, and did not consider this person's needs/preferences. So what do you need to say to a person who has justified in their mind that what they are thinking/doing is perfectly fine and acceptable? How do you get them to have a paradigm shift in their thinking/conclusion regarding the matter? The answer is found in addressing point #1... The root of the problem. "...someone can't ride certain sections of trail and this bothers them." So how do you address this? Maybe... "IF YOU CAN'T RIDE IT, WALK IT!... Cutting Cheater Lines Will Get This Park Closed To All Riders. Edited December 17, 2019 by RidingAgain 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motopail Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I like the sign with the AMSA listed.... we might be able to help with cost. we have paid for signage in the past at Emma. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zrx24 Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) This sign was recently installed at the main trail entrance. Clearly it has had little effect. As many have stated, some people just don't give a crap and do what they're gonna do. I'll just keep barricading stuff back up, and doing what I can to keep the "easy" lines easy. Edited December 17, 2019 by zrx24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinBike Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Not sure that they think they are cutting new trail, they are just “fixing” existing trail would be my guess of what runs through their head. If they even think about it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheX Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 59 minutes ago, AustinBike said: If they even think about it at all. Doubt they think about it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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