A bit of an unusual situation...

[RidingAgain]

I live in an apartment complex in SW Austin that has a lot of open space, enough to build a trail of maybe 1/2 to 3/4 mile long that would include some interesting features. I've been toying with the idea and even walked of a section to see how it would flow. The Tip came here one day and thought it had potential too. Anyway, I was working on my bike a few weeks ago and the complex manager who lives on the property stopped and asked me if I could help her find a bike — the type with big wheels. I said I could and ended up building her a bike that she is really happy with (she had been a roadie for some years but stopped riding for some time. She wanted to start again, but not on the road)... So happy that she asked if I'd be interested in helping other people in the complex with their bike needs, and maybe start a biking group to take out on rides in the community. One thing led to another and I mentioned the idea of building a trail on the complex property. She was open to it, especially from the POV of security. Wonderful... But what are the legal implications of doing something like this?



 

[mack_turtle]

forgiveness > permission. if anything goes awry, it's the property owner/ manager's responsibility.

[Ridenfool]

If no money changes hands, nor any other consideration of value is taken as payment for the work that you do, then, you would be a volunteer on a project approved by the owner's representative.

Like mack_turtle says, any risk/responsibility would be on the shoulders of those managing the property.

[TAF]

7 minutes ago, Ridenfool said:

If no money changes hands, nor any other consideration of value is taken as payment for the work that you do, then, you would be a volunteer on a project approved by the owner's representative.

Like mack_turtle says, any risk/responsibility would be on the shoulders of those managing the property.

Assuming, of course, that the complex does actually own the open land.

Edited September 19, 2018 by TAF

[The Tip]

I say it all the time, housing projects, either homes or apartments, like to brag about their amenities. On their marketing material "Hike and Bike Trails" is almost always listed right after "Swimming Pool." They spend lots of money to have these amenities built. I'm sure part of that money goes towards liability insurance. If she's good with it I wouldn't worry at all.

See if she'll allow an entrance to be opened up through the fence to Williamson Creek Greenbelt. Then you will really have it made! Tell her that will give the apartment complex (a much coveted) direct access to the 80 miles of the SATN. Pretty cool.

[TAF]

1 minute ago, The Tip said:

I say it all the time, housing projects, either homes or apartments, like to brag about their amenities. On their marketing material "Hike and Bike Trails" is almost always listed right after "Swimming Pool." They spend lots of money to have these amenities built. I'm sure part of that money goes towards liability insurance. If she's good with it I wouldn't worry at all.

See if she'll allow an entrance to be opened up through the fence to Williamson Creek Greenbelt. Then you will really have it made! Tell her that will give the apartment complex (a much coveted) direct access to the 80 miles of the SATN. Pretty cool.

Throw in free access to a water spigot, and the trails will be quite popular, right off the bat!

[RidingAgain]

2 hours ago, TAF said:

Assuming, of course, that the complex does actually own the open land.

According to the City of Austin map they do. It's all within the fenced off area of the property. And like the property with the church next door, there's a large section that they can't build on (as yet, no doubt they would if they could find a way to), but most of it has been clear cut and is just an open field. Along the periphery of that clear cut section though is a lot of space that has been left overgrown and a singletrack-type trail can be cut through it.

The key is to find a way to not make it become a problem (maintenance cost... resident complaints). There already is a gravel trail that runs around a bit of the property and people use it, and would most likely have an interest in walking any other trail in close proximity.

Regarding a gate to the Williamson Creek trail section... That would require a bit more as it would have to have a push-button lock, like the other property gates do. This requires a properly made gate with hinges. Maybe Bamwa could help with a price on that.

I also think that the Williamson Creek trail section would need to be cleaned up a bit, and maintained — which, yes Tip, is something I said I'd participate in — as a part of selling that idea would be that residents would want to, and easily could, go walk it... Maybe to connect to the Violet Crown trail. If it's overgrown and thought to be unsafe that idea wouldn't fly.

Edited September 19, 2018 by RidingAgain

[Bamwa]

Edited September 19, 2018 by Bamwa

[El Gringo]

23 hours ago, Ridenfool said:

If no money changes hands, nor any other consideration of value is taken as payment for the work that you do, then, you would be a volunteer on a project approved by the owner's representative.

Like mack_turtle says, any risk/responsibility would be on the shoulders of those managing the property.

Attorney chiming in here . . . ^^ All due respect, this is not correct.  If I volunteered my services as an electrician to a property owner free of charge, performed negligent work, and a tenant got electrocuted, who do you think is going to be liable?  More importantly, regardless of actual liability, who do you think is going to get sued? 

Answer:  EVERYBODY.  The land owner, the property manager, and anyone associated with the work - regardless of whether they were paid or not.  Additionally, even if the plaintiff doesn't sue you, the property owner's insurance company may very well subrogate the claim and go after you.

If this is going to be accessed by the general public, be smart and do it under the umbrella of a MTB Club that has insurance.  You can argue all day long about recreational use statutes, etc., but the reality is that regardless of whether or not you end up being found liable, getting sued is a financial catastrophe in and of itself.

[Ridenfool]

If you are a licensed electrician, the contract you enter into with the state when making application for that license will likely define the liability exposure to some extent. The fact that you do that sort of work for hire, and have done so in the past, would also provide some traction in a suit, even if the particular work performed was done without compensation.

Generally speaking, if money (or other value) didn't exchange hands there was no commerce involved. The ability to bring a civil suit for work performed, particularly unskilled manual labor in trail building, would be difficult. Sorta like someone finding a bad potato and suing the migrant worker that dug it up.

Unless there is clear evidence showing some intent to do harm existed. Then, it very likely could be brought as a civil or criminal suit for damages.

Otherwise, I think it would be a tough row to hoe to sue any specific volunteer trail builder who was in no way compensated, was not licensed to perform the work in some way, and has never performed those services for a fee.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and the above is merely an opinion from some guy on the internet. Probably best to contact an attorney to get a professional legal opinion,

[RidingAgain]

Makes you wonder if you can get sued as a volunteer working for ARR.

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, RidingAgain said:

Makes you wonder if you can get sued as a volunteer working for ARR.

Well, technically people can sue you for anything.  Doesn't mean they'll win, but they can surely inconvenience you.