Gears go Central...

[RidingAgain]

Full disclosure... This is just, in my opinion, an interesting article related to mountain biking. I didn't write it... I simply read it and though I'd share it with the members of this forum. Read it and keep your thoughts to yourself. Or read it and share your thoughts. Hope that helps.

Oh yes... For those anal about age of stuff... This article was published on 7/11/2018... Judge accordingly.

Now to the interesting article...


https://www.pdxmonthly.com/articles/2018/7/11/can-this-portland-company-revolutionize-the-mountain-bike

Edited October 3, 2018 by RidingAgain

[AustinBike]

I still don’t think you are getting it. You’ve gone from posting a random link to posting a random link with a “disclosure”. Why not post and make a statement about your thoughts. From Planes Trains and Automobiles: “Here’s an idea, when you tell a story have a point, it makes it so much better for the listener.”  

[mack_turtle]

interesting development. Pinion gear boxes have always intrigued me. I guess a few small companies have made one (Ghost comes to mind), but it's not gone mainstream yet. Domahidy did a pretty good job of shaking up the industry with Niner, so maybe he can do it again. no derailleurs to fiddle with, just change the oil in it every year/ 6,000 miles. the handlebar/stem is interesting too.

http://www.viral.bike/

[RidingAgain]

6 hours ago, AustinBike said:

I still don’t think you are getting it. You’ve gone from posting a random link to posting a random link with a “disclosure”. Why not post and make a statement about your thoughts. From Planes Trains and Automobiles: “Here’s an idea, when you tell a story have a point, it makes it so much better for the listener.”  

 

But I'm not telling a story... I'm posting a "...random link...".

Not sure why you're not "...getting it...".

[Ridenfool]

Sometimes a banana is just a banana?

In all honesty RidingAgain, you do sometimes come across as a little thin-skinned and tend to respond defensively whenever someone points out how something you posted was perceived by them.

When I get consistently aligned feedback from multiple sources I'll take an honest look at myself and try to understand how I left that impression. Not everyone will respond to feedback the same way.

This is merely another unbiased observation. I've got no dog in this hunt and merely offer another opinion from the peanut gallery. You seem like an okay fellow, except for possibly having a chip teetering precariously upon your shoulder from time to time.

Happy Trails

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ridenfool

[Ridenfool]

5 hours ago, mack_turtle said:

interesting development. Pinion gear boxes have always intrigued me. I guess a few small companies have made one (Ghost comes to mind), but it's not gone mainstream yet. Domahidy did a pretty good job of shaking up the industry with Niner, so maybe he can do it again. no derailleurs to fiddle with, just change the oil in it every year/ 6,000 miles. the handlebar/stem is interesting too.

http://www.viral.bike/

I've been following these sorts of drives for a long time. DeVinci and Rolloff in the rear hub, and others like this one. Still waiting to see the development of a gearbox in this location attached to a full suspension frame.

I would like to see a DeVinci type drive in that location rather than adding unsprung weight to the wheel. Set the torque level and go, no shifting evah.

Once such a beast is in production I'll still have to wait a few years and try to pick one up on the used market as the price will likely be a whopper ...

Edited October 3, 2018 by Ridenfool

[jcarneytx]

That story was...meh.

TLDR: "Hey, I started niner bikes and I built an internally geared bike. In Portland, OR."

 

Now, if it had included something about the development, maybe some notes on actual performance or gear range, testimony from riders comparing it to modern systems from the big S's. Now that'd be a story worth reading.

Edited October 3, 2018 by jcarneytx

[AustinBike]

"unique designs to minimize maintenance" - as long as you have their special tools. What makes today's drivetrains valuable is that they are (relatively) simple to service with a few standard tools. Because they all generally work the same way users can do their own repairs. 

When you start building "better mousetraps" you are increasing the learning curve for both individuals and shops.

Not everything needs to be revolutionary. In fact the best inventions are evolutionary as they improve the experience without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Teamsloan]

Didn't read, but gearboxes have been tried on bikes since I was in college. They never catch on as anything but a niche product. It's so easy to keep today's drivetrains clean, so simple to take apart, so simple to replace the parts...and they're super efficient mechanically. The gear box has a few advantages, but a majority of people (me included) don't think they're big enough to leave the traditional drivetrain behind.

How much do they weigh? Does that weight include the (?)ccs of oil? How much drag does the drivetrain have compared to the chain and cassette setup?

A big downside I see is the limitations the bulky gear box puts on frame designers with regard to rear suspension. We've seen a significant number of advances in suspension now that they only have to work around the location of the bottom bracket instead of being hampered by a front derailleur mount. Having a big box to work around is a step backward even if it still allows a single chainring.

[AntonioGG]

1 hour ago, AustinBike said:

"unique designs to minimize maintenance" - as long as you have their special tools.

I'm not saying that this design is worthy of the end-all-designs internal transmission bike design, but how often do you have to adjust the transmission in your car?  The end-goal in my view is to not have to  adjust or maintain anything at all except to change the oil every 6k miles or whatever.  There are already successful internal transmission hubs out there.  AFAIK they are generally liked by those using them in commuter bikes.  

It's like the argument for buying a car b/c parts are cheap, easy to find, and everyone carries the parts.  There's a reason for that!

$60-90 chains every 1k-2k miles (maybe 3k on a road bike if you're willing to shorten the life of your chainrings.) $70-400 cassettes depending on which ones you run every 3k-4k miles.  $50-120 chainrings every maybe 3k miles or so?

[AustinBike]

Fair point.

The key for me is "what problem are you trying to solve"? If the problem you are trying to solve is the fragility of a derailleur, then there are already internal gears available that fit in a rear hub. These can be retrofitted onto almost any existing bike frame with little trouble (like Rohloff). 

Any change to gearing that limits the frame, geometry or suspension is a no-go in my book. This is not a better mousetrap, it is simply a different mousetrap. And if we are already catching mice today, it is hard to convince me that the extra cost and hassle of one of these is going to bring additional mouse carcasses to the game.

1X drive trains were a real game changer. 11-speed (and 12-speed) were significant evolutions - (just like 9-speed and 10-speed in the past). This is just different for the sake of being different, I don't see the problem that it is solving. Find me hydraulic brakes that never need adjusting/bleeding, and I will jump on that in a second, but adjusting a derailleur is something that is easy to do and  only needs to be done once or twice a year. All of this work and cost to save me a few dollars? I have better uses for my money.

[RidingAgain]

19 hours ago, Ridenfool said:

Sometimes a banana is just a banana?

In all honesty RidingAgain, you do sometimes come across as a little thin-skinned and tend to respond defensively whenever someone points out how something you posted was perceived by them.

When I get consistently aligned feedback from multiple sources I'll take an honest look at myself and try to understand how I left that impression. Not everyone will respond to feedback the same way.

This is merely another unbiased observation. I've got no dog in this hunt and merely offer another opinion from the peanut gallery. You seem like an okay fellow, except for possibly having a chip teetering precariously upon your shoulder from time to time.

Happy Trails

 

 

 

 

You kind of snookered me there, Ridenfool... A careful, subtle ad hominem attack that sets up any response from me as proving your point.

Nice.

Only not being thin-skinned I don't really give a rat's ass and just barge right through.

See the speaking that's been generated on this thread... I enjoy it... In all honesty... I really, really enjoy it. Which is why I often post "...random links...". I read and learn from the thoughts and experience of others who respond to the subject matter. And for me, this is what community should be.

And the other stuff... Look up the meaning of "...picong...". I was raised on it. So, no. No "...chip teetering precariously upon my shoulder...", just an understanding/ability of how, when poked, to poke back. And I do so all in in good fun.

Happy trails to you too, and thanks for sharing your thought on the subject of the article.



 

Edited October 4, 2018 by RidingAgain

[TheX]

4 hours ago, RidingAgain said:

You kind of snookered me there, Ridenfool... A careful, subtle ad hominem attack that sets up any response from me as proving your point.

Nice.

Only not being thin-skinned I don't reallt give a rat's ass and just barge right through.



 

Your constant need for defensive answers proves otherwise. You are the ONLY person here that gets that type of response from the general population.

[RidingAgain]

4 hours ago, TheX said:

Your constant need for defensive answers proves otherwise. You are the ONLY person here that gets that type of response from the general population.

Hey, pops... Bite me.

[Anita Handle]

On 10/3/2018 at 1:41 PM, Ridenfool said:

I've been following these sorts of drives for a long time. DeVinci and Rolloff in the rear hub, and others like this one. Still waiting to see the development of a gearbox in this location attached to a full suspension frame.

I would like to see a DeVinci type drive in that location rather than adding unsprung weight to the wheel. Set the torque level and go, no shifting evah.

Once such a beast is in production I'll still have to wait a few years and try to pick one up on the used market as the price will likely be a whopper ...

Nicolai has been integrating Pinion gearboxes into their full suspension frames for a while now. Expensive, but a lot of nice things are expensive. One of our friends has a hardtail Nicolai with the Pinion gearbox. I think he likes it but not as much as his multiple bikes with Rohloff hubs on them.

 

https://en.nicolai-bicycles.com/gearbox-ride/

[Ridenfool]

Only after Giant, Specialized and Trek start putting them in frames will we begin to see the lower prices that only competition and high production numbers bring. Until then, I'll watch for these boutique Pinion equipped bikes on the trail and learn what I can from those who are the early adopters.

Rohloff seems to have the greater following of any of the sealed gearbox choices.

[Anita Handle]

those Viral bikes are beautiful works of art! Very much a niche, with them being titanium, hardtails with internal gearboxes. Not much more niche than that in today's mountain bike world.

 

More power to them. If the reliability of off the charts, I could see certain users seeking them out. Rohloffs are heavy but have proven themselves to be extraordinarily reliable.

[AntonioGG]

3 hours ago, Ridenfool said:

Only after Giant, Specialized and Trek start putting them in frames will we begin to see the lower prices that only competition and high production numbers bring. Until then, I'll watch for these boutique Pinion equipped bikes on the trail and learn what I can from those who are the early adopters.

Rohloff seems to have the greater following of any of the sealed gearbox choices.

Today's pinion gearboxes are like the $800 CD players in 1982!

[AustinBike]

14 hours ago, Anita Handle said:

Nicolai has been integrating Pinion gearboxes into their full suspension frames for a while now. Expensive, but a lot of nice things are expensive. One of our friends has a hardtail Nicolai with the Pinion gearbox. I think he likes it but not as much as his multiple bikes with Rohloff hubs on them.

 

https://en.nicolai-bicycles.com/gearbox-ride/

3-4,000EUR for a frame?

This helps make my point that the technology is overly expensive, this is an $800 hammer.

[Ridenfool]

4 hours ago, AustinBike said:

3-4,000EUR for a frame?

This helps make my point that the technology is overly expensive, this is an $800 hammer.

C'mon, it's a frame, cassette, and derailleur for 3-4K Euro, This is a $1000 Hammer, pliers, and screwdriver set.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Ridenfool

[AustinBike]

Yeah, $1000 hammer to solve a $30 problem.

[TheX]

I wish I had kept my Schwinn Varsity from the '70s.

[AntonioGG]

Those are all in boutique frames though.  If you go look for some of those using Pinion, the one vendor I looked at, unfortunately uses different level components in one vs the other, so it's hard to find the actual difference in the frames (e.g. Reba in the Pinion vs SID in the regular, M7000 brakes in the Pinion, M8000 brakes in the regular).  I'd call the difference <$1k.  It's within the range of consideration for the cost of wear on regular drivetrain components being a factor in the decision.

[throet]

2 hours ago, TheX said:

I wish I had kept my Schwinn Varsity from the '70s.

Ha I had a yellow Schwinn Continental that my parents got me in the '70s for like $80. It's actually probably still in their basement.  

[AustinBike]

Always wanted a Varsity, Schwinn was the hometown bike for those of us in Chicago. Saw one at a Frankenbike not too long ago and thought about buying it, but stupidly decided against it. Would love to have one. Ended up with a Ross back in the day because I could not afford the Schwinn. And I am sure I paid ~$100 for it in the early 80's. Schwinns were $150+ at the time.