How do we feel about One Wheels?

[DirtSurfer]

7 hours ago, Teamsloan said:

Wow.

It seems like there are two groups here. One is operating under the long established/traditional understanding of the law (before e-things were a thing) and one was operating on the belief that their own new interpretation of the law was good enough.

We’ll refer to them as Old School and New School.

Old School doesn’t like anyone that comes along and decides without any official word from enforcement that the traditional interpretation of the law doesn’t apply. It appears to Old School as if New School is doing this, and he feels that while they may be well intentioned, New School needs to go get official clarification. Otherwise it’s just his word against the other with no real authority backing either one. This is a reasonable and understandable reaction to New School even if New School doesn’t like it.

New School later reports back that he has spoken to law enforcement and they side with his new interpretation of the law. But this is still little better than his own interpretation because it’s still only his word and he has no authority. I think Old School would happily change his interpretation of the law to conform with New School’s if the law enforcement with actual authority in the situation made it clear which interpretation of the law would be enforced. This could be done through public service announcements and updated signage. Then Old School would have an authoritative source informing the interpretation instead of some weird guy with no credibility claiming he’s right.

Old School, well done on trying to build a relationship with the mtb community. I just think it would be much better received by those Old School people if an authoritative source made it clear what the enforceable interpretation is instead of you. Don’t blame them for seeking a more authoritative source, they’re German.


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That was good, and I get it, and I wish I could tell John at PARD to write you all a letter- but I think you are asking for the impossible - Who is THE authoritative source?  Ultimately it's a judge and jury.  A policeman can write a ticket, but that doesn't mean it will stick.  John at PARD says yes - does everyone at PARD have the same opinion?  If you asked 2 policemen, you might get 2 different answers. 

The problem is that the signs existed before Segways existed.  When the law changed, they realized they didn't want to incur the cost of making another 1 million signs that says "no motorized vehicles except EPAMDs"  So they just changed the definition of a "motorized vehicle" and no signs needed to be replaced.  It also discourages those who don't know the law from bringing anything in the park with a motor, instead of trying to use the exception on the sign and claim they are an EPAMD.

If I was on a Segway, OldSchool would still be asking me for a permission slip - but no one has the authority to give me a permission slip - All they can do is give a recommendation, but ultimately its the courts who decide.

I can't make anyone prove its OK for me to ride there.  But I am ready to go to court and fight, based on the precedence set around the country for EPAMDs.  Until a OW is written a ticket for operating as a motorized vehicle, we will all just be waiting.  If OldSchool wants a definitive answer, then they just need to get a cop to write me a ticket, and we will go from there.  I won't be offended for sending the cops after me.  If that is what it takes, then that's what it takes.

 

[RidingAgain]

8 hours ago, DirtSurfer said:

Please try to wrap your head around that fact... Now that I’ve explained above how we are legal on the trails, do you feel a little bit like a bully? Maybe an apology is in order?... so please stop yelling at us to leave when you see us...

 

Yep... Sure sounds like you got him down pat.
 

[Tree Magnet]

You have passion Dirtsurfer. I think both schools are going to have to agree on that. You and your OW crew keep doing your thing. I’m fine sharing the trail and a shovel with you and every positive interaction will just increase the number of mountain bikers that feel the same way.


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[RidingAgain]

9 hours ago, DirtSurfer said:

For now, I’m going to keep showing up on Sunday and keep bringing friends.  I’ll continue sharing the stoke of the Onewheel as well as riding my onewheel on all the trails I like to ride my bike.  The onewheel is actually good for the trails – you would like them better if I rode them more often.  It is perfect for smoothing out bike ruts and crushing lumps of dirt flung onto the trails by tires during wet times.  It doesn’t harm the trails, it doesn’t harm anyone, and it’s legal.    It is an amazing device, and I think that your opinion of the onewheel would change if you tried to ride one.  It’s really not fair to judge when you have no experience riding one. 

 

 

Good for you.

And for my part...

I first saw OneWheelers out at Walnut around October last year maybe. About three or four of you up on the Point Six Loop section. And you all were fine when my wife and I rode by... Which we did twice as that section of trail is one of my favourite sections to warm up on so I do it twice.

You all pulled aside to allow us to pass, and did so in a timely manner, and I don't think I even needed to say "Biker up" on anything similar (which shows an awareness of what's happening around you). And when I said "Thanks" you all responded with a positive response.

And this is supported by the way you came to this website to engage the local mtb community.

Unfortunately, as you find in all groups, you will come across someone who thinks their social position gives them the right to talk down to people... And even speak ignorantly, because they seem to think that the people they are talking down to are fools who are unable to expose the ignorance inherent in their speaking — as you have clearly done in one of your above comments.

DirtSurfer... Welcome to the Austin community of trail users. Keep on keeping on in the manner that you have... Humble enough to properly engage existing trail users, yet holding to a vision of developing an activity you enjoy.

Edited May 2, 2019 by RidingAgain

[csmceuen]

1 minute ago, Tree Magnet said:

You have passion Dirtsurfer. I think both schools are going to have to agree on that. You and your OW crew keep doing your thing. I’m fine sharing the trail and a shovel with you and every positive interaction will just increase the number of mountain bikers that feel the same way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is spot on! Yeah we may not all agree that you should/should not be on the trails, but keep doing your best to create positive interactions. We as mountainbikers still struggle with this and many of us do our best to go out of our way to be polite to make up for some of the d-bag strava tards that give us a bad name and threaten all of our access to trails. Even with courtesy I have gotten yelled at by hikers and walkers for just riding my bike.

Ultimately we cannot be the determining factor of your legal status, but to go on you cop comment from earlier. If someone had a big enough problem with you they would have already called the cops. Assuming that has not been done...no one is that upset about your presence.

Thanks for your service on the trails! Keep on enjoying our parks. Dont ride and e-bike :). See you out there on the trails man.

P.S. I have ridden a one wheel and they are a ton of fun and certainly not easy/skill-less though I do not think anyone would argue that fact.

[RidingAgain]

16 minutes ago, DirtSurfer said:

The problem is that the signs existed before Segways existed.  When the law changed, they realized they didn't want to incur the cost of making another 1 million signs that says "no motorized vehicles except EPAMDs"  So they just changed the definition of a "motorized vehicle" and no signs needed to be replaced.  It also discourages those who don't know the law from bringing anything in the park with a motor, instead of trying to use the exception on the sign and claim they are an EPAMD.

 

Good example of public management/financial efficiency by government.

Unusual... But hey, I'll take it.

[RidingAgain]

16 hours ago, Seths Pool said:

maybe scooters,  motorcycles, and one wheels are all in the same circle because they are ......... motorized.....?

 

Well...

Now that we have been informed on the matter of "...motorized..." — as per law and the context of this discussion... It seems like they shouldn't been in the same circle.

Being informed is a wonderful thing.

[The Tip]

18 minutes ago, csmceuen said:

 Even with courtesy I have gotten yelled at by hikers and walkers for just riding my bike...on trails built and maintained by mountain bikers.

And it's not that we want the trails all to ourselves either. Well, most of the MTB community that is. Shoot, some of the MTB community doesn't want to even share with other mountain bikers!  lol

[DirtSurfer]

24 minutes ago, AntonioGG said:

Dirtsurfer, the conversation from John at PARD, his opinion is one thing, but what did he say about what the law actually says?  I ask because in the last 6 months or so there has been a pilot program to allow EPAMDs (actually, I think it may actually say scooters) in certain trails.  The signs are still up on some of these trails.  I think Walnut is one of them, so is Shoal Creek.  I'm not sure about other trails.  To me, that means that they're not currently allowed in other trails.  So that would be good to clarify.

Don't misinterpret any of this as us wanting the trails to ourselves.  We just want the trails.  We don't want to give certain people the excuse to ban everyone off parks or trails while we're arguing over legal definitions.  Yes, a-hole MTBers are part of what we worry about too and the people that are in the frontlines battling to gain and maintain access get to hear about every bad interaction.

I was thinking about OWs as I was trying to flatten bike rutts at Brushy Creek.  That big fat wheel would take care of them in no time.

John and I discussed the EPAMD law.  We discussed that Segways are just one type of EPAMD, and not the only one.  He explained that the law cannot name brands or products, as that would discriminate against other companies or products.  We went over the wording of the law, and he agreed that a onewheel fits the description of an EPAMD as described by the law.  He said it was a "reasonable interpretation" as well as his interpretation and agreed that despite the OW having only one wheel, it still fit the requirements under the law.  He expected that if someone were to write me a ticket for operating one, that I would have a great case in court.  He can't say anything definitively - after all, its a judge who lays down the law based on his interpretation.  John could only say whether he agrees with my interpretation of the law, but since he is not a judge, he cannot tell me what the exact ruling would be.  Only in a court of law will we every truly know what a judge would say.  We can get a good idea of the ruling based on precedence.  Judges rule based on precedence, and precedence has been established in many states including Arizona, where the wording of the law was changed to say "one wheel or two no-tandem wheels" 

He said that the pilot program is to allow some vehicles that are classified as motor vehicles ( like scooters) to see if they can co-exist on the trails.  The EPAMD law is separate and already exists, , and is not a part of the pilot program.  EPAMDs are already allowed on trails by the law. The pilot is to see if other vehicles should be allowed or not.  The pilot is a chance to see if scooters should be allowed.  Personally I don't think they should.  I think Scooters rut up the trails, and for that reason alone, they should not be allowed. I have a lot more reasons, but I don't support the use of scooters, especially rentals and the scooter litter they create.

I would have been at Brushy Creek Saturday too, but I had family in town that needed entertaining.  I'm glad you can appreciate how the OW can help with trail maintenance and berm building,   Work smarter not harder!  It's also great to shuttle things back and forth, like water to soften the dirt, moving logs from place to place, or just hauling a wheel barrow down the trail.  I'm going to try to be out there this Saturday at Brushy Creek to see where I can lend a hand.  Maybe I'll see you there?

   

[Seths Pool]

1 hour ago, DirtSurfer said:

 

****The greenbelt is a bit rough for my liking, but by telling me to stay away, you only make me want to show up.****   You have no authority, so why should I listen to you, and not listen to John at PARD?

 

unsurprising mentality..... yes, please, go to the greenbelt, sacrifice your fun and walk while carrying your one wheel everywhere because the trail is too rough, all while telling yourself its a victory in the face of that stupid guy named Seth online. lmao 

1 hour ago, RidingAgain said:

Thanks for your consideration of the greater mtb community needs.

oh please, I dont know how else to day this without sounding totally full of myself but dont talk to me about caring about the mountain biking community. ive done more for the Austin Texas mountain biking scene than you (and many others) probably ever will. im not trying to toot my own horn but seriously? I eat breath and shit mountain biking, have lived here my whole life, and have been a very dedicated contributor to the scene around here. I literally have spent the last 3 1/2 years adding an entire trail system to Austin, am very welcoming to new riders, host group rides, promote events, help run a mountain biking club, have worked with big names and companies from the mountain biking world to get exposure to our scene, etc etc. so little remarks like that piss me off pretty good. youre a nice guy and everything but dont sit behind your keyboard as you often do flooding this forum board with nonsense and make remarks like that to people like me who actually invest great amounts of their time and efforts.. 

maybe I am caring for the greater mtb scene by not promoting opening the flood gates to all these motorized contraptions on mountain bike trails that already have their challenges.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Seths Pool

[DirtSurfer]

10 minutes ago, Seths Pool said:

unsurprising mentality..... yes, please, go to the greenbelt, sacrifice your fun and walk while carrying your one wheel everywhere because the trail is too rough, all while telling yourself its a victory in the face of that stupid guy named Seth online. lmao 

oh please, I dont know how else to day this without sounding totally full of myself but dont talk to me about caring about the mountain biking community. ive done more for the Austin Texas mountain biking scene than you (and many others) probably ever will. im not trying to toot my own horn but seriously? I eat breath and shit mountain biking, have lived here my whole life, and have been a very dedicated contributor to the scene around here. I literally have spent the last 3 1/2 years adding an entire trail system to Austin, am very welcoming to new riders, host group rides, promote events, help run a mountain biking club, have worked with big names and companies from the mountain biking world to get exposure to our scene, etc etc. so little remarks like that piss me off pretty good. youre a nice guy and everything but dont sit behind your keyboard as you often do flooding this forum board with nonsense and make remarks like that to people like me who actually invest great amounts of their time and efforts.. 

maybe I am caring for the greater mtb scene by not promoting opening the flood gates to all these motorized contraptions on mountain bike trails that already have our their challenges.

ASSume much?

I never said I was going, I said you make me want to go.  I think you got the point though - you don't get to tell me where to go or what to do - you have no authority over me or the trails, despite your ego saying otherwise.  I'm happy to hear that you are such a big supporter of the trails, yet surprised that you don't appreciate the work we have done so far.  Are the trails you made private trails or are they available to the whole community?  Which ones are they, I can't wait to try them out. :)

[Seths Pool]

31 minutes ago, DirtSurfer said:

ASSume much?

I never said I was going, I said you make me want to go.  I think you got the point though - you don't get to tell me where to go or what to do - you have no authority over me or the trails, despite your ego saying otherwise.  I'm happy to hear that you are such a big supporter of the trails, yet surprised that you don't appreciate the work we have done so far.  Are the trails you made private trails or are they available to the whole community?  Which ones are they, I can't wait to try them out. 🙂

the trail system is on private property - is intended for FR512 members, or invite only. and you would earn my utmost respect if you can ride a one wheel there and not die. not even kidding or being sarcastic. if youre seriously interested I can have you sign a liability waiver and go out there with you with my GoPro and record your glory.

and just to be clear I dont hate e-bikes or one wheels or other motorized vehicles, nor the people that use them. I just think they have their place, and got annoyed reading the back and forth debate in this thread with people interpreting the written rules to their benefit.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Seths Pool

[DirtSurfer]

5 minutes ago, Seths Pool said:

the trail system is on private property - is intended for FR512 members, or invite only. and you would earn my utmost respect if you can ride a one wheel there and not die. not even kidding or being sarcastic. if youre seriously interested I can have you sign a liability waiver and go out there with you with my GoPro and record your glory.

and just to be clear I dont hate bikes or one wheels or other motorized vehicles, nor the people that use them. I just think they have their place, and got annoyed reading the back and forth debate in this thread with people interpreting the written rules to their benefit.

 

Seth, thanks for the invite!  It is very tempting - I know you would have more respect for us if you saw me trying to get around those difficult trails.  It sounds like the trails you are speaking of wouldn't be much fun for us - same as the greenbelt - with a wheel size of only 11 inches, it really limits the size of objects you can climb or get over, so it would probably be a lot of carrying.  I don't mind carrying if there are some good spots to ride, but if the terrain is Expert for a MTB, then it's really not OW territory.  An intermediate MTB trail is an Expert OW trail.  If its difficult for a biker, then it is much more difficult for us.  11 inch wheel vs. 29 inch wheel.

Don't we all interpret the rules to our benefit?  Whether they stick on not is the decision of a judge, and I feel confident I would prevail in court.  If you feel right and lawful about something, would you just roll over and turn around because someone said you don't belong, or would you stand up for yourself and what you thought was right?  I'm almost begging to get a ticket, so I can fight it and set the record straight once and for all, so people like yourself can have the proof you need. 

Also - to address one of your concerns -  there is no flood gate opening - the law doesn't need to change for OWs to ride.  As the law stands now, EPAMDs can ride on all the trails, and all the other electric contraptions cannot.  I understand why you are protective of the trails - you have invested a lot of time and effort, and you don't want to see them over-run with "electric contraptions".  I support you in that - I don't want that either.  Where there was once only bikers to take care of the trails, there is now a new group to share the work load. Just like Skiiers and snowboarders, there are now MTBs and OWs.  Segways too, but who wants to ride one of those?

[AntonioGG]

1 hour ago, DirtSurfer said:

The pilot is a chance to see if scooters should be allowed.  Personally I don't think they should.  I think Scooters rut up the trails, and for that reason alone, they should not be allowed. I have a lot more reasons, but I don't support the use of scooters, especially rentals and the scooter litter they create.

   

This is interesting. What is the distinction between a scooter and a one wheel?  Why isn’t a Lyme scooter considered an EPADM?  What if I have a privately owned scooter?  I would also think a Segway would cause a lot of rutting but you don’t seem to mind them if I interpreted your post correctly (apologies if I didn’t)

This is where we may have our disconnect.

Edited May 2, 2019 by AntonioGG

[Teamsloan]

11 minutes ago, DirtSurfer said:

I understand why you are protective of the trails - you have invested a lot of time and effort, and you don't want to see them over-run with "electric contraptions".

As much as I don't want to see them over-run with e-things, that's not my issue or what Seths Pool is worried about. The main concern is maintaining access to the trails at all. If the land managers (CoA in this case) see a bunch of users breaking rules (not referring to you), then they could potentially throw everyone out as enforcement is too difficult due to lack of resources. This is my greatest fear with e-MTBs and it extends to all other "grey area" users even if some of those users aren't actually in a grey area legally. The perception of users breaking the rules is what makes the difference.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Teamsloan

[RidingAgain]

1 hour ago, Seths Pool said:

oh please, I dont know how else to day this without sounding totally full of myself but dont talk to me about caring about the mountain biking community. ive done more for the Austin Texas mountain biking scene than you (and many others) probably ever will. im not trying to toot my own horn but seriously? I eat breath and shit mountain biking, have lived here my whole life, and have been a very dedicated contributor to the scene around here. I literally have spent the last 3 1/2 years adding an entire trail system to Austin, am very welcoming to new riders, host group rides, promote events, help run a mountain biking club, have worked with big names and companies from the mountain biking world to get exposure to our scene, etc etc. so little remarks like that piss me off pretty good. youre a nice guy and everything but dont sit behind your keyboard as you often do flooding this forum board with nonsense and make remarks like that to people like me who actually invest great amounts of their time and efforts.. 

maybe I am caring for the greater mtb scene by not promoting opening the flood gates to all these motorized contraptions on mountain bike trails that already have their challenges.

 

 

 

Dude... Lighten up.

How many times do you want me to thank you for all that you've done and are doing.

But my bad...

Maybe I should have included a winking emoji.

Here ya go...

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by RidingAgain

[RidingAgain]

1 hour ago, DirtSurfer said:

ASSume much?

I never said I was going, I said you make me want to go.

 

Yeh... I hear you.

Par for the course on these threads.

[RidingAgain]

1 hour ago, Teamsloan said:

As much as I don't want to see them over-run with e-things, that's not my issue or what Seths Pool is worried about. The main concern is maintaining access to the trails at all. If the land managers (CoA in this case) see a bunch of users breaking rules (not referring to you), then they could potentially throw everyone out as enforcement is too difficult due to lack of resources. This is my greatest fear with e-MTBs and it extends to all other "grey area" users even if some of those users aren't actually in a grey area legally.

 

 

 

 

Then what's needed is for all users (including potential users) to come together as one community to engage these land managers.

That way... They won't see "...a bunch of users...", but a unified, larger group of local tax-paying citizens united in their effort to build, use, maintain, and develop trails for their use.

Change comes...

What makes a difference is how you handle change.

Edited May 2, 2019 by RidingAgain

[cxagent]

Removed.

Edited May 4, 2019 by cxagent
Added to 1st paragraph.

[DirtSurfer]

1 hour ago, AntonioGG said:

This is interesting. What is the distinction between a scooter and a one wheel?  Why isn’t a Lyme scooter considered an EPADM?  What if I have a privately owned scooter?  I would also think a Segway would cause a lot of rutting but you don’t seem to mind them if I interpreted your post correctly (apologies if I didn’t)

This is where we may have our disconnect.

good questions -

The distinction between a OW and a scooter according to the law is determined by what vehicle classification each fits under.  There is a huge list of vehicle definitions at TXDOT, I think I linked to them in my first post on the first page.  All vehicles must be defined under the law, so the definitions describe them, and list requirements for that classification like - light truck must be under 2500 pounds...just making those numbers up, but you get the idea.  Everything from trailers, scooters, UTVs, to mobile homes has a definition.  Departments of the State like PARD do not have a separate list of their own vehicle definitions,, it uses the States official list created by TXDOT.   If you look through the list, you won't find an exact description under Texas Law of a OW.  But you will find an EPAMD. The OW was created after the list was made.  BUT, It was created by the manufacturer Future Motion, to be an EPAMD, and fit under the laws the govern them,  It meets both requirements  1) self balancing  2) 750 watts or less power

Electric scooters are defined as their own type of vehicle, and they are not exempt from being classified as a "motorized vehicle" like an EPAMD is.

Onewheels have been officially recognized and are classified as EPAMDs in Arizona,  California, and a few other states.  As far as I know, Texas has never had a case come to court to determine if the law needs to be adjusted to add the term "one wheel" like Arizona did.

A lime scooter isn't an EPAMD because it doesn't fit the definition of an EPAMD.  #1 Requirement for an EPAMD is that it must be self balancing

An EPAMD has a specific definition under the law with 2 requirements 1) self balancing  2) 750 watts or less power

If you have a privately owned scooter, I support you riding anywhere but on the dirt trails, I should have been clearer,  I don't like the current scooter rental model, where scooters are left all over the place, and I don't like scooters of any kind on dirt trails.

Segways tires are as fat as a mountain bike, and they require constant traction - you cant peel out on a EPAMD since it is self-balancing, once you lose traction you fall.  So, I think a Segway would be comparable to a mountain bike in the size ruts it left behind.  The problem is, the ruts are not in line with the regular racing line, they would be on each side of it, so the ruts wouldn't be in the normal place.  I'd prefer not to see them on the trails though, they would have a hard time being so wide, but yet they are legal, so I wouldn't stop them or hassle them for riding it. 

[AustinBike]

5 hours ago, DirtSurfer said:

I understand the signage is misleading, but I think that is to your benefit - follow me on this - even if you take OWs out of the equation, Segways are allowed, and the sign says "no motorized vehicles"  So the signage as it exists is confusing, because you have to go back to the definition of a motorized vehicle under the law - most people think that if it has a motor, then it is a motorized vehicle.  I  get that, and its a normal assumption.  

So the sign is misleading, but it helps keep out things that you don't like.  Heck, it has probably kept out a number of Segway owners, because they don't know the law, and that they are not a "motorized vehicle"  under the law.  You could add verbiage to the sign that says "except EPAMDs"  but that would open the slippery slope for people to say "I thought I was an EPAMD"  when riding a scooter, and you would probably end up with more things on the trail that you don't want.

If you can accept that Segways are allowed with the existing signage, then its not a stretch to accept that onewheels are too.  If they didn't change the signs for Segways who pushed the law into existence, then I doubt they will change them for Onewheels.  Keeping the signage keeps more things you don't like out of the park, including Onewheel owners and Segway owners who don't know the law. 

Thanks for recognizing the work we are doing, I've read a lot of your posts - and I think had I rolled up on my bike sometime, we would probably have hit it off.

I stand by my original position: the OW community needs to get with PARD and get this sorted out. 

You Interpretation does not matter. 

My interpretation does not matter. 

PARD’s official position matters. 

[AntonioGG]

Does it define self balancing in the fore aft only or could it be interpreted side to side while being ridden?

[Ridenfool]

1 hour ago, AntonioGG said:

Does it define self balancing in the fore aft only or could it be interpreted side to side while being ridden?

I think it might mean it can hold itself balanced without outside forces acting upon it. Or, possibly even despite outside forces acting upon it.

Which comes full circle to the big question, "Why can't bicycles stand up by themselves?"

Because, they're two tired.

[Teamsloan]

^Thank you for this.

[DirtSurfer]

13 hours ago, AntonioGG said:

Does it define self balancing in the fore aft only or could it be interpreted side to side while being ridden?

It just says self balancing, I think Ridenfool is pretty accurate with his definition below.  I would think it also applies both at rest and in motion. 

11 hours ago, Ridenfool said:

I think it might mean it can hold itself balanced without outside forces acting upon it. Or, possibly even despite outside forces acting upon it.

Which comes full circle to the big question, "Why can't bicycles stand up by themselves?"

Because, they're two tired.

That joke was right on time