Upgrade Path

[tomreece]

I'm new to MTB and am already addicted. My first bike is a Specialized Rockhopper. I've ridden it 450 miles so far and I like it a lot even though it's entry level.

I am trying to avoid upgrade-itis but I often consider the following 3 options:

1. Upgrade the Rockhopper. I've looked at a new fork, a dropper, and going 1x. However, most things I read online advise against upgrading such a cheap bike.
2. Buy a nicer hardtail like a Trek Roscoe 8 that caught my eye the last time I was in the shop. The nicer components (fork, dropper, 1x) come with the bike.
3. Buy a full suspension. It seems like everyone else has this. The problem is.. which one. It's hard to fathom spending so much money on a bicycle. Before I bought mine, I thought $700 was a lot...ohh how naive I was.

No matter what, I am riding the Rockhopper until the end of the year and possibly into next year. Until then, I've set in my head that I will not upgrade anything unless it breaks.

What do you guys think of my rambling?

Edited October 5, 2018 by tomreece
fixing word salad

[throet]

11 minutes ago, tomreece said:

I'm new to MTB and am already addicted. My first bike is a Specialized Rockhopper. I've ridden it 450 miles so far and I like it a lot even though it's entry level.

I am trying to avoid upgrade-itis but I often consider the following 3 options:

1. Upgrade the Rockhopper. I've looked at a new fork, a dropper, and going 1x. However, most things I read online advise against upgrading such a cheap bike.
2. Buy a nicer hardtail like a Trek Roscoe 8 that caught my eye the last time I was in the shop. The nicer components (fork, dropper, 1x) come with the bike.
3. Buy a full suspension. It seems like everyone else has this. The problem is.. which one. It's hard to fathom spending so much money on a bicycle. Before I bought mine, I thought $700 was a lot...ohh how naive I was.

No matter what, I am riding the Rockhopper until the end of the year and possibly into next year. Until then, I've set in my head that I will not upgrade anything unless it breaks.

What do you guys think of my rambling?

Glad to hear you're enjoying yourself so much. We still need to meet up and ride by the way - maybe this weekend?

Regarding your options, I would suggest option #3 and keep your Rockhopper as a backup bike, possibly doing some upgrades on it down the road. Having a backup bike is really handy, especially for those of us who rely mostly on the bike shops for maintenance. Just take your time figuring out what you want in a full-suspension bike, and when you see something close on clearance, go for it. Nice bikes can be had for 30% or more off retail if you shop carefully, even steeper discounts if you're willing to buy a demo bike.  

[mack_turtle]

which Rockhopper level did you buy? Spec makes several bikes at varying prices and components levels under the Rockhopper name. if you bought the base model, upgrading it might be a waste of time, as you'll gradually spend twice what a nicer bike would cost up front by replacing it one piece at a time.

these days, if you're going to ride trails like what we have in Austin, the market for a decent bike starts at $1000+.

suspension is a tricky topic in Austin. depending on how and where you ride, some people think it's "necessary" and some avoid it altogether. I ride a 29er singlespeed with a rigid fork, sometimes with a suspension fork. that's the only mountain bike I own. I also shy way from the gnarly descents I have seen in some unmentionable trails, but I know people who also ride that stuff on a rigid singlespeed too. a FS bike would give you some additional confidence, but it's not going to make up for just riding enough that you gain skills and strength. However, an entry-level bike with crappy suspension and parts that break will hold you back to some degree.

Edited October 5, 2018 by mack_turtle

[Ridenfool]

Get a line on BSS's rental fleet. When they refresh there are some good deals to be had there.

Also, look for closeouts online for models from previous years. Great deals can be had there as well, and you are buying new.

[Teamsloan]

Keep that Rockhopper and only upgrade/replace the consumables (tires, chain, cassette). In a couple of year it'll make a great back up bike assuming it's not the base model like Mack_turtle explained.

Don't forget the used market is strong here in Austin. You can save a ton of cash that way if you know what you're looking for, and you will after a couple of year of riding and pay attention to bikes around you and spend time researching.

Suspension is a luxury, you don't need it. Build the skills first. I've ridden with many people on fully rigid single speeds that can clean any trail Austin has to offer aside from maybe the FR512 stuff out there. Suspension makes the ride more enjoyable for longer to me. My hardtail gives me back pain at the end of hard rides.

[Ridenfool]

Caveat, if riding a hardtail often results in pain in the lower back, tailbone, etc. that prevents you from riding as often, consider a full squishy as a welcome and needed upgrade.

[mack_turtle]

Personal experience- back pain is not because of riding a hardtail. Back pain is a lack of conditioning. A squishy bike will only mask the underlying problem of a misaligned spine, unbalanced and atrophied muscle groups (weak core, tight hamstrings, overdeveloped quads, etc.) and lifestyle habits that make it worse. I literally just spent the past 30 minutes in the gym doing prescribed exercises to undo all the damage that a lifetime of sitting at a desk and only riding bikes for exercise has done to me.

Yesterday I saw x-rays of my spine that were taken on Tuesday. It's not FUBAR but it's FU.

That said, a squishy bike is starting to look really nice to me lately.

[Ridenfool]

As I had worked very hard for many, many years to achieve that particular level of, as you call it, lack of conditioning, atrophied muscle groups, and lifestyle habits that make it worse, there had to be a way to achieve MTB happiness without squandering that treasure trove of blessings.

With all of the accumulated time, money, and effort put into gaining those attributes, it seemed obvious that moving to a full squishy (a used Giant NRS, back in the day) was the only way to ride more often with no more pain and suffering than absolutely necessary. (keeping in mind the mantra of "If you aren't bleeding, you aren't having fun")

I've never thought twice about it since and wouldn't ride a hardtail on anything but a sidewalk.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Ridenfool

[mack_turtle]

I thought about what I just wrote, and yes, for the average mortal, with all other things being equal, a FS bike is a more practical choice. when you start considering budget restraints, how hard and how far the average person rides, maintenance costs, etc, how hard you are willing to work to keep your body in shape, a hardtail is certainly doable. it's a compromise.

Edited October 5, 2018 by mack_turtle

[Teamsloan]

1 hour ago, mack_turtle said:

Back pain is a lack of conditioning. A squishy bike will only mask the underlying problem of a misaligned spine, unbalanced and atrophied muscle groups (weak core, tight hamstrings, overdeveloped quads, etc.) and lifestyle habits that make it worse.

So you're saying I'm doing it wrong. I get it.

*My MRI sounds similar you.
Tomreece, don't forget core workouts!

[Shinerider]

Run what you brung.  Don't upgrade until you can outride the bike itself.  Full suspension leads to poor bike handling skills especially right off the bat.  Anything in central texas and beyond can be ridden on a hardtail.  Full Sus just makes it a little easier.  It doesn't make up for bad skills.

[AustinBike]

Yeah, I have ridden every trail in Austin on a hardtail (with the exception of a couple of unmentionables). Get your skills, eclipse the bike and move on to the next.

1x is good if you find yourself messing with your gears a lot (for adjustment) but don't tend to shift that much for really high or really low ratios.

A dropper is an investment that you might want to consider instead of a FS bike. But it is a luxury, not a necessity. 

Focus on your skills, not your bike.

[gotdurt]

Once upon a time...

I got my first MTB in '88. I lived near Houston, and it, and my next couple of bikes were fully rigid (I don't count a Girvin Fexstem as suspension). Going to a suspension fork around '93 was a big deal, but it took until 2002, when a beloved and expensive hardtail build was stolen, for me to move to a full suspension. I was living in AZ at the time, riding real, technical mountains, and it made sense...

Less than a year later, I picked up a nice hardtail for my wife, and took it out for a spin on some trails that I used to ride both, my FS and previous hardtail on; I couldn't believe the bad habits and lack of grace that I had developed while riding the FS... Without realizing it, I had gotten used to just plowing through stuff and using the suspension as a crutch to laziness (much like clipless pedals, but that's another discussion), and I struggled on sections and features that used to be easy and fluid on my hardtail. I immediately began building a new hardtail for myself, and have had one in addition to a FS ever since, splitting my time between the two almost evenly... and if I ever narrow my stable down to just one bike, it'll be a hardtail (probably steel, with AM geometry). I can do almost anything on my hardtail that I can do on my FS, and more, albeit sometimes not *quite* as fast...

My opinion and advice is, work on skills while you ride what you have, until you find its limits (you'll know it when you actually do), at which point you'll also know what direction to go with your next bike. Until then, sensible mild to moderate upgrades (especially cockpit) as needed are fine; I recommend watching for closeouts and good used components to keep from investing too much, while still improving the bike and keeping it going until you are ready to make the jump to a real moneypit 😀

I'll add that, just because you upgrade something, doesn't mean that it's married to that bike; those parts might be worth moving on to the next bike (ie: dropper, a good set of bars, etc). So, you aren't necessarily upgrading beyond the value of the bike...

Edited October 6, 2018 by gotdurt

[throet]

17 hours ago, Shinerider said:

Full suspension leads to poor bike handling skills especially right off the bat.

Could you elaborate on this? I've often heard people say that you should learn to manual and bunny hop on a hardtail because it is easier to learn on, which has been my experience as well. I often lock out my rear sus when practicing these skills. However, I've never heard anybody claim that riding an FS leads to "poor bike handling skills". Are you referring to cornering? Braking? Body position and balance? My belief is that each individual rider chooses whether they want to learn proper skills or not, regardless of whether their bike is FS or HT.  

[ATXZJ]

I learned to ride MTB on a full suspension 29, and clipped in. Lots of bad habits there. Going back to a HT and flats helped push my abilities in the right direction and had me focusing on refining my techniques . The cyclocross bike really helped me fine tune my ability to pick lines rather than just steamrolling everything. 

Each bike has its place.

As others have said, my 2c is to do very basic upgrades when needed and save your pennies for a closeout or used full sus, when you are ready for one. 

[throet]

7 minutes ago, ATXZJ said:

I learned to ride MTB on a full suspension 29, and clipped in. Lots of bad habits there.

No doubt about the bad habits picked up riding clipless. Can't even count the number of people who I've come across that believe a bunny hop entails yanking up on your pedals. What I'm struggling to understand is what bad habits are specifically attributed to riding full suspension, especially around bike handling.

[TheX]

I've been down the mod/upgrade rabbit hole before, and it can get ugly. 

[AustinBike]

3 hours ago, throet said:

Could you elaborate on this? I've often heard people say that you should learn to manual and bunny hop on a hardtail because it is easier to learn on, which has been my experience as well. I often lock out my rear sus when practicing these skills. However, I've never heard anybody claim that riding an FS leads to "poor bike handling skills". Are you referring to cornering? Braking? Body position and balance? My belief is that each individual rider chooses whether they want to learn proper skills or not, regardless of whether their bike is FS or HT.  

Let me try:

A FS bike, especially one with lots of travel, allows you to just motor through anything. Add a 50T cassette on the back so you never have to crank hard to get up a climb or feature and you are pretty much assured that you are not building your skills. I have a FS but I spend most of my time on a steel SS hardtail and that SS kicks my ass. It reminds me of how much more I have to learn. On the FS I can just plow through anything, it is fun to ride, but there is little skill involved. When you have a 32x18 hardtail you learn a lot more about HOW to ride the bike because you are required to use some real skills.

[Cafeend]

I agree with AB.
On the full squish I don’t have to think ahead about lines or position or terrain for example. You just plow through it for the most part.
On the SS I need to be more aware of body position. Pedal Position and where and how I start pedaling for example.
I can’t necessarily just plow through and go up and over. It takes more thought and finesse and basic skills.
It forced me to learn and remember the skills I learned years ago but got lazy riding because the bikes I owned became “better” so didn’t have to ride with quite the same skills.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Tip]

28 minutes ago, AustinBike said:

On the FS I can just plow through anything, it is fun to ride, 

Please stop having fun while riding. I am offended. We all know that the reason we ride is to suffer.

But seriously, this "my hard tail makes me get better" mantra I don't understand. I guess I don't understand because I don't race in competitions. I want to get better of course, just so I can ride a more varied assortment of trail, but I'll work on getting better on my FS so that I can have "fun" while doing so.

[throet]

2 hours ago, AustinBike said:

A FS bike, especially one with lots of travel, allows you to just motor through anything. Add a 50T cassette on the back so you never have to crank hard to get up a climb or feature and you are pretty much assured that you are not building your skills.

But what skills specifically are you using on your hard tail when you aren't "motoring" through something or when you're cranking hard to get up a climb? More specifically, what "poor bike handling skills" are developed if you learn those same skills on a FS? That is the point I was challenging. As Cafeend mentioned, maybe you pay more attention to line choice. I can accept that, but I don't agree that you won't learn proper line choice by progressing your skills on an FS. You should choose different lines based on the bike you're on and based on your own skill level, but what's wrong with that? I'm always seeking out more challenging lines on my rides to help build more skills.

When I look across the spectrum of what are considered essential skills - balance, body position, trackstanding, cornering, braking, looking ahead / line choice, descending, climbing, ratcheting, pumping, punching, manualing, bunny hopping, rear wheel lift and pivot,  etc, - I'm just not getting where any of these would be developed poorly because you're learning on an FS vs HT. I believe that probably 80% of the amateurs who believe they are skilled mountain bikers probably aren't, and instead use various methods of compensating for poor skills, whether they learned on an HT or a FS. I'm only 4 years into progressing my skills, and I'm doing it almost exclusively on an FS. When I do decide to ride my HT, I use those same skills and am amazed by the stuff I can do in tech terrain on an XC HT with steep head angle. I've got a long way to go in my progression, but I'm absolutely confident that I'm not developing bad habits solely because I choose to progress on an FS.  

Edited October 6, 2018 by throet

[Ridenfool]

Full Suspension is easier, no shit. So is 29 and 27.5, 1x11, the list goes on. This "easier" technology allows the rider to focus on developing other skills BECAUSE they aren't having to compensate for the shortcomings of a hardtail, fixie, singlespeed, blah, blah, blah.

Sure, I get how riding these less advanced technologies is a challenge (century old tech), and I'm all for people pursuing challenges, it builds character. That's how I think of the people I see riding bikes like that. Good for them!

The fact remains, skills can be developed on any bike. Some bikes these skills are developed because you have to. Others you may develop a skill on because you want to. Adding skill and technique are necessary to improve the riding experience. This is more about the rider than it is about the bike.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Ridenfool

[throet]

22 minutes ago, Ridenfool said:

This is more about the rider than it is about the bike.

Thanks for saying it much more concisely than I was able to! 

Edited October 6, 2018 by throet

[mack_turtle]

riding a bike with a motor in it would be more fun. think about all the lines you would NOT have to pick!

[TheX]

You guys have TWO wheels? Cheaters. Unicycle riders have the real skillz.