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Albert

Rear axle keeps slipping on On-One Singlespeed

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I have a 29'er On-One Singlespeed, and I haven't ridden it in a while because one or two parts on the back of the bike that keeps the rear wheel in place will slip while I'm riding, resulting in the tire rubbing against the chain.  Here's the part I'm talking about:

OnOne_SS_Chain_Thing.thumb.jpg.bf9a3d96e6ba52bee4bfb904ff5fc40e.jpg

It's the black part with the two bolts and a screw on the end, and there's one on each side.  I have no idea waht this part is called.  I've tried adjusting this myself, but invariably after a while it slips again.  I've even had at least one shop also adjust these, and even then at least one of them comes undone over time.  Seems like a poor design to me.  Is there anyone familiar with this design and how to properly secure it to prevent any play in the wheel at all?

Thank you!

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6 minutes ago, Albert said:

I have a 29'er On-One Singlespeed, and I haven't ridden it in a while because one or two parts on the back of the bike that keeps the rear wheel in place will slip while I'm riding, resulting in the tire rubbing against the chain.  Here's the part I'm talking about:

OnOne_SS_Chain_Thing.thumb.jpg.bf9a3d96e6ba52bee4bfb904ff5fc40e.jpg

It's the black part with the two bolts and a screw on the end, and there's one on each side.  I have no idea waht this part is called.  I've tried adjusting this myself, but invariably after a while it slips again.  I've even had at least one shop also adjust these, and even then at least one of them comes undone over time.  Seems like a poor design to me.  Is there anyone familiar with this design and how to properly secure it to prevent any play in the wheel at all?

Thank you!

Have you tried a couple of lock washers under those bolts?

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10 minutes ago, Chief said:

Have you tried a couple of lock washers under those bolts?

Nope.  I could certainly try that, though.  It's a bit of a pain getting the wheel lined up and chain properly tensioned while trying to adjust these bolts on both sides of the bike.  Do not like.  I'd rather pay someone else to do it, someone who knows what they are doing!  I'd like to get another singlespeed soon to replace this bike, but I'd like to get this issue resolved before I sell it to someone else.

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I doubt the bolts on the sliders are coming loose if you're putting any reasonable amount of torque on them.

Remove the wheel and measure the space between the dropouts as it should be nearly exactly 135 mm. This assumes you're also using a 135 mm rear hub. If there's a discrepancy between the space between the dropouts and the width of the hub, it cuz could cause things to "want" to shift.

What's the condition of the interface between the frame and the dropout insert? Is it smooth or is it rough? If it's smooth it could stand to be sanded down or have friction paste but between those two parts.

I have experimented with putting gears on a bike but I think it's safe to say that I've dealt with every single speed option on the planet.

Edited by mack_turtle
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7 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

I doubt the bolts on the sliders are coming loose if you're putting any reasonable amount of torque on them.

Well, considering I had a shop attempt to fix this and they also failed, I figured they would know how much torque to apply.  They are definitely slipping, what else would cause the wheel to come askew?  And I have, multiple times, "fixed" this myself by loosening the bolts, repositioning the sliders, and tightening them back up, including while on rides.  I haven't ridden the bike in several years because of this, and I'm quite eager to ride Suburban Ninja on it. 😄

7 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

Remove the wheel and measure the space between the dropouts as it should be nearly exactly 135 mm. This assumes you're also using a 135 mm rear hub. If there's a discrepancy between the space between the dropouts and the width of the hub, it cuz could cause things to "want" to shift.

I will check that out, thank you.

7 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

What's the condition of the interface between the frame and the dropout insert? Is it smooth or is it rough? If it's smooth it could stand to be sanded down or have friction paste but between those two parts.

I'll take a look at this also, I've not heard of "friction paste", but I see Park sells some (and I'm sure a million other sources):

https://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-SAC-2-Assembly-Compound/dp/B005Z4BAAK

7 minutes ago, mack_turtle said:

I have experimented with putting gears on a bike but I think it's safe to say that I've dealt with every single speed option on the planet.

This is the first singlespeed bike I've owned, so I don't really have a lot of experience with them at all.

Thanks for your advice.

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I had two different Redline Monocogs that used that type of Chain Tensioner.  Worked great with Rim Brakes but not with Disc.   I hard rear brake would shift the tire against the frame every time.

 

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5 minutes ago, Taco Man said:

I had two different Redline Monocogs that used that type of Chain Tensioner.  Worked great with Rim Brakes but not with Disc.   I hard rear brake would shift the tire against the frame every time.

Yeah, when I get another singlespeed, I will certainly be avoiding this design!  That's an interesting bit about disc brakes, didn't even think about that (and this bike has them, as you can see from the above photo).

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Sliders like the IRD, Paragon Machine Works, and the ones Kona uses are generally trouble-free. I've seen a lot of those older On One frames with track ends, so those particular sliders are new to me.

Friction paste can never hurt.

You could also ask On One of they have a particular torque in mind. The rather large bolts on Paragon machine works are 17 to 19 ft pounds.

Peddling and braking forces can both throw the wheel out of alignment.

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1 hour ago, mack_turtle said:

Sliders like the IRD, Paragon Machine Works, and the ones Kona uses are generally trouble-free. I've seen a lot of those older On One frames with track ends, so those particular sliders are new to me.

Friction paste can never hurt.

You could also ask On One of they have a particular torque in mind. The rather large bolts on Paragon machine works are 17 to 19 ft pounds.

Peddling and braking forces can both throw the wheel out of alignment.

I have a Kona and 2 Vassagos, all have the Paragon-style dropouts. I find that with all of them I need re-tighten after several weeks of riding. Kinda annoying, but it is a slow slip and I can usually ignore it for a few weeks before the chain is loose enough that I have to readjust.

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That’s called a chain tensioner aka chain tug in the old bmx world. So even with the screw well snugged against the end of the frame it’s sliding?  Is the screw slipping above/below the end of frame or is it loosening up? That screw on the end is “supposed to” keep it from sliding forward without having to tighten the crap out of the slider bolts.  All the chain tugs I’ve used on track end bikes have stayed put so not sure what’s up.  If the screw is loosening a lock washer on it between nut and end of chain tug (black piece) should help.  On the actual slider I’ve seen star washers used but they bite into the frame a bit.  

There’s lots of replacements available. Maybe look more in the bmx realm. Example below: 

https://www.danscomp.com/box-two-chain-tensioner-black-3-8-10mm-bx-ct182x10m-bk/p1272129?v=721268&gclid=CjwKCAjw9LSSBhBsEiwAKtf0n7FBz_KMokKmlz5bNBDHWIJoa6qzAs8OLUuTYW3F0AkNUwVX0tp75xoC8SsQAvD_BwE

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8 hours ago, Taco Man said:

I had two different Redline Monocogs that used that type of Chain Tensioner.  Worked great with Rim Brakes but not with Disc.   I hard rear brake would shift the tire against the frame every time.

 

I suspect its this.  Not slipping due to pedaling torque, but due to braking forces.  With the tensioner screws on the end, it simply could not move fwd (but rather only rearward).  Its not a super intuitive problem to solve.  But I'd start by taking it apart and filling down the paint (& black anodizing) so that you can have some purchase between the two surfaces.  Than as @AntonioGG suggested, maybe getting higher quality bolts and increasing torque to them a good bit.  But I suspect your culprit is the (lack of) friction between the two surfaces with allow it to slip FORWARD under (disc) braking loads.

Later,
CJB

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Thanks for the advice, everyone, much appreciated. I'll take it apart and look at the surface, and if it's still the smooth paint, I can sand it down a bit to make it rougher.  I'll also check the space between the dropouts.  I don't think the bolts are coming loose, I think it's just sliding, whether it be from pedal torque or braking.  Never even dawned on me previously that it could have been hard braking causing the issue.  Are these chain tensioners (of this style) fairly standard?  That is, could I buy third-party tensioners and expect them to work on this bike? 

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12 hours ago, CBaron said:

I suspect its this.  Not slipping due to pedaling torque, but due to braking forces.  With the tensioner screws on the end, it simply could not move fwd (but rather only rearward).  Its not a super intuitive problem to solve.  But I'd start by taking it apart and filling down the paint (& black anodizing) so that you can have some purchase between the two surfaces.  Than as @AntonioGG suggested, maybe getting higher quality bolts and increasing torque to them a good bit.  But I suspect your culprit is the (lack of) friction between the two surfaces with allow it to slip FORWARD under (disc) braking loads.

Later,
CJB

This is similar to the issue that I ran into with my MonoCog Flight that I owned.  The frame deformed on the disk brake side in the carrier area that holds the slider allowing it to have vertical twisting play.  I sure this was due to to many rock ledge drops with the rear brake applied, got to love CTX riding.  This was allowing the brake side to move fore, aft, and slightly vertically no matter how tight the bolts were.  Would have required cutting the frame and adding back in a new carrier portion on the rear triangle.  My issue was due to metal fatigue from repeated bashing....

 

Was hoping my old post had a detailed picture of the deformed slider portion of the frame, but it does not.

 

Edited by DBehrens
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1 hour ago, schoolie said:

Just making sure... are you snugging this bolt up against the frame and locking the lock nut?

Yes, and I will make sure to do that when I examine all this again soon.  🙂

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2 hours ago, schoolie said:

Just making sure... are you snugging this bolt up against the frame and locking the lock nut?
 

But thats my point if it is snugged up against the frame, I see absolutely ZERO way for that side of the sliders to move fwd.  Thus it would point to the other side being the sliding culprit, which means braking forces.  I had a dropout doing this exact think on one of our TF bikes that were running 'experimental slider' DO's.    It was very unintuitive until the clues all lined up.

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1 hour ago, CBaron said:

But thats my point if it is snugged up against the frame, I see absolutely ZERO way for that side of the sliders to move fwd.  Thus it would point to the other side being the sliding culprit, which means braking forces.  I had a dropout doing this exact think on one of our TF bikes that were running 'experimental slider' DO's.    It was very unintuitive until the clues all lined up.

Yep, exactly. My karate monkey does the same thing. Right side dropout never slides forward under pedal loads because the chain tugs hold it back, but left side slides backwards if I stab the brakes too hard and the axle isn't tight (no sliding dropout on the monkey, just track ends).

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8 minutes ago, WhoAmI said:

I used to think lock washers worked. They don't.

Lots of different lock washers, most are garbage and a bandaid on a Fastener/joint issue. Split washers (shown in the article) are the worst kind garbage. 

I've been lurking on this thread waiting for the experienced SS riders to comment. I agree, sounds like braking force is the issue here. Motorcycles from the 60s/70s use a very similar chain tensioner bolt but rely solely on the rear axle (~17mm Dia) torqued to 40-60 ftlbs. Adding friction by removing/scuffing paint and using friction paste is a great idea in these smaller bolted joints with high loads. 

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The tire is touching the frame: on which side? If the tire is shifting to the left and touching the NDS chainstay, that's the right side slipping. If the tire touches the right side, thats the left side shifting under breaking.

Edited by mack_turtle
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1 hour ago, mack_turtle said:

The tire is touching the frame: on which side? If the tire is shifting to the left and touching the NDS chainstay, that's the right side slipping. If the tire touches the right side, thats the left side shifting under breaking.

Good question, and I don't remember if it was only happening on one side (probably).  I'll go pedaling around on the bike to see if I can reproduce it.  Once I put some pedals back on the bike. 😄

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