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On 3/15/2020 at 9:54 AM, 4fun said:

I’m going to politely disagree with you. The rising entitlement of the healthcare consumer over the last 10 years is already making being a health care worker very challenging. Can you Imagine with a single payer, this is my right for you to serve me attitude and by the way I’m going to cut your salary in half. We would lose a ton of good nurses and doctors that have brilliant minds and would succeed in other sectors.

I just got charged 3k at senton hosp er for them to read an xray I had taken somehere else, inmobilize my finger  and give me a referral.  Seems totally absurd. I am with chief

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1 hour ago, Morris said:

I just got charged 3k at senton hosp er for them to read an xray I had taken somehere else, inmobilize my finger  and give me a referral.  Seems totally absurd. I am with chief

You or your insurance? Hospitals don’t get paid what’s on your EOB or bill from the insurance company. That’s not to say a hospital does not charge way more than an equivalent private outpatient service. They have to make up for the patients they are required to treat that they don’t get paid for. I think last quarter the hospital I work at gave away 12 million dollars worth of care we will never get paid for. 

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3 hours ago, Morris said:

I just got charged 3k at senton hosp er for them to read an xray I had taken somehere else, inmobilize my finger  and give me a referral.  Seems totally absurd. I am with chief

they dont actually make much money. They have to charge so much because of all the free services from people that dont pay. Approximately half of hospital i bills arent paid.

I subscribe to buddy which is supplemental insurance for extreme sports. 

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3 hours ago, 4fun said:

You or your insurance? Hospitals don’t get paid what’s on your EOB or bill from the insurance company. That’s not to say a hospital does not charge way more than an equivalent private outpatient service. They have to make up for the patients they are required to treat that they don’t get paid for. I think last quarter the hospital I work at gave away 12 million dollars worth of care we will never get paid for. 

I think you are both saying the same thing.

The system is f%*&ed up.

The real issue is lack of transparency. There is zero transparency on either costs or outcomes. This is not the fault of the medical people busting their asses. This is the fault of the lobbyists for private insurance.

In England, I had a customer that did regular ratings for every doctor on every procedure. If you need a surgery you can see how many they have done, how many have been done in the country and the outcome percentages for both the doctor and the country in general. Oh, and the cost to you (typically $0 because of NHS).

Just try that here. Can't be done.

It is amazing that the consumer is "object" in the transaction, the insurance provider is the "customer" and the insurance provider is also setting the prices and terms for the provider. 

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In Jamaica my family had a doctor that looked after four generations... My grand parents, my parents, their kids, and one grandkid. He was a personal family friend that would come to Sunday lunch with us on occasion. Different days we live in.

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So, has everyone heard, "the masks will not prevent you getting it. Only the sick should wear them."
Right? You've heard this?

So why is the medical community clamoring for these same masks? 

I had that thought today.

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13 minutes ago, The Tip said:

So, has everyone heard, "the masks will not prevent you getting it. Only the sick should wear them."
Right? You've heard this?

So why is the medical community clamoring for these same masks? 

I had that thought today.

Because they’re deep in it. 

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1 hour ago, The Tip said:

So, has everyone heard, "the masks will not prevent you getting it. Only the sick should wear them."
Right? You've heard this?

So why is the medical community clamoring for these same masks? 

I had that thought today.

That is SOOOOO easy to answer. 

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So, has everyone heard, "the masks will not prevent you getting it. Only the sick should wear them."
Right? You've heard this?

So why is the medical community clamoring for these same masks? 

I had that thought today.

I thought this was a good question actually. I can see the front line medical personnel wanting the real-deal masks but those little surgical looking ones don’t seem like enough.


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2 hours ago, The Tip said:

So, has everyone heard, "the masks will not prevent you getting it. Only the sick should wear them."
Right? You've heard this?

So why is the medical community clamoring for these same masks? 

I had that thought today.

A reason I've heard about why masks won't prevent it is because most people are not wearing masks correctly.

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This is the explanation I heard from a science doctor-y person.  It has to do with the size of the virus in microns.  The N-95 mask has larger pores than a single virus.  The analogy was to think of five big guys trying to get through a single door at the same time.  They can't do it.  In the same way,  multiple virus particles can't get through one pore in the mask. 
The N-95 mask is not 100% effective, but it is definitely much, much  more protective than nothing or a little surgical mask. 

Asking front line medical personnel to treat patients with an active CV 19 infection without PPE is criminal.  Some of them will die.  Some of them have already died. 

We at the start of this. What happens when these people are too ill to work at the same time the health care system is overwhelmed with patients in desperate need?

Korea has an ingenious "telephone booth" testing set up that 100% protects those administering the COVID-19 test. 

 

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Maybe a good way to explain the mask thing is to think about it in bike terms. Let's play this game with 204mm hydraulic brakes.

First, let's think about ALL bikes in the general public. This is every crappy commuter bike, every Wal-mart bike that never rides more than 2 miles to the kid's friend's house, every road bike, every college kid bike that is left out in the elements all year.

Now, think about 204mm hydraulic brakes and relish on this thought:

"The brakes will not provide any benefit"

Now think about that small sliver of riders who are mountain bikers like us. Let's face it folks, we're the 1% of the total bike universe, if that.

And 204mm hydraulic brakes are a BIG deal for us. We see the benefit, we actually use them, we actually benefit from them.

There are a dozen reasons why everyone in the world should not rush out and get 204mm brakes and we should leave them only for the people that are actually going to need them.

Now, could a real mountain biker actually get by with 160mm mechanical brakes? Absolutely. Would that be optimal? No. Would it be better than rim brakes? Yes.

Basically the utility of the masks is lost on the general public for the many reasons explained above (and in the market) and if you were a doctor, you want the best, but if the best is not available, you'd take a Home Depot painter's mask over nothing at all.

 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, cxagent said:

That is SOOOOO easy to answer. 

And the answer is.....??

I understand why the medical community is clamoring for the masks. Obviously they help prevent the spread of disease even though they don't prevent 100% transmission. 

I read a thing about DYI masks. There have been tests about what percentage of a certain micron sized particle can get through various things. 1% or so on the n95 masks down to 50% for coffee filters. These aren't the exact numbers, but I didn't want to look it up again.

But my point, the question I can't figure out is, why would the media tell people more or less to not wear a mask? ANY kind of mask, even a bandana, helps some. I would think we would use any help towards the fight. The education campaign should be to teach to not have a false sense of security from wearing a mask rather than discouraging people from wearing something.

edited after reading AustinBike's post as we posted at the same time;

Exactly. If the motive to the "masks won't help you" campaign is to save supply for the medical community, they should say that. And that is an EXCELLENT motive but why the disinformation to get to that goal? 

 

Edited by The Tip

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Tip said:

And the answer is.....??

I understand why the medical community is clamoring for the masks. Obviously they help prevent the spread of disease even though they don't prevent 100% transmission. 

I read a thing about DYI masks. There have been tests about what percentage of a certain micron sized particle can get through various things. 1% or so on the n95 masks down to 50% for coffee filters. These aren't the exact numbers, but I didn't want to look it up again.

But my point, the question I can't figure out is, why would the media tell people more or less to not wear a mask? ANY kind of mask, even a bandana, helps some. I would think we would use any help towards the fight. The education campaign should be to teach to not have a false sense of security from wearing a mask rather than discouraging people from wearing something.

edited after reading AustinBike's post as we posted at the same time;

Exactly. If the motive to the "masks won't help you" campaign is to save supply for the medical community, they should say that. And that is an EXCELLENT motive but why the disinformation to get to that goal? 

 

Tip and AustinBike are asking good questions and making good points. Anything (masks) will help some. Virtually nothing (PPE) is fool proof. Should we / them / healthcare providers do what they can as long as it helps some? Yes - they should.

But what happens when the folks that get little to no benefit use up all the supplies so the folks that would benefit have nothing to use? That is why the 'story is being managed' to try to send the supplies to the places / people that will benefit most. Case in point - the news yesterday was saying that COVID-19 tests should only be used for people that 'were exposed' or the course of their care might be changed. So if someone who would get the same treatment regardless of the test results don't use up a test (and PPE and lab time etc) so that those resources are no longer available. Save the testing for where it actually helps.

 

As to the "answer"  - the story is being managed. In many many many ways. A little information and the 'public' panicked and started doing crazy stuff. Like hoarding toilet paper. Like buying up all of the meat and bread and milk in the grocery stores. The story immediately changed to try to tamp down that panic. That change only helped a little. Pick how you think the story is being managed and you can decide if that 'management' is appropriate. The keep listening and keep an open mind. Usually the 'story' will change to almost the opposite direction. Then decide if you think that direction is appropriate. But wait, then the story will change in a new direction. Then another new direction. Then another. And another. It is no wonder people (the public) is getting whiplash and panicking.

As I posted a few days ago. Try to take a very broad view and keep an open mind. I think most people are trying to do good in their own way. Stay calm. Think logically and look for real data with supporting evidence. Try to see thru the "story". There is a book I recommend for everyone during 'normal times' called Factfulness. ( https://www.amazon.com/Factfulness-Reasons-World-Things-Better/dp/1250107814 ) During times like these the logical thinking is many many times more important. It helps you see thru the "story" being presented on the news.

Edited by cxagent

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The reason you can't get a straight answer is because some people can afford 204mm hydraulic brakes for their cruiser and believe that because they will help them, they should have them.

The art of sacrifice for the greater good is out the window these days.

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8 minutes ago, cxagent said:

It is no wonder people (the public) is getting whiplash and panicking.

And no wonder why we have less and less faith in most of our media outlets. 

Me trying find the truth these days is similar to when I would create new recipes for the restaurant. I would go to three or four different recipe books to see how THEY made a certain ethic dish. I would see what were the common ingredients to all the recipes and start from there.

So now with the news, if I see a story, I will find out if two or three different sources say the same thing before I believe it.

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On 3/21/2020 at 11:54 AM, TheX said:

I spent the morning Zwifting.

Zwifting is the mountain biking equivalent of eating store-made guac.

 

(Full disclosure:  I don't each guac or Zwift.  I just like to be a sarcastic a-hole sometimes.)

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2 minutes ago, olddbrider said:

Zwifting is the mountain biking equivalent of eating store-made guac.

 

(Full disclosure:  I don't each guac or Zwift.  I just like to be a sarcastic a-hole sometimes.)

I thought we decided that store-made guac is ok, but the bagged guac is bad. There is so much misinformation out there these days, I don't know who to trust.

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42 minutes ago, The Tip said:

And no wonder why we have less and less faith in most of our media outlets. 

Me trying find the truth these days is similar to when I would create new recipes for the restaurant. I would go to three or four different recipe books to see how THEY made a certain ethic dish. I would see what were the common ingredients to all the recipes and start from there.

So now with the news, if I see a story, I will find out if two or three different sources say the same thing before I believe it.

Hmmm, I would not put this on the media. They are reporting what they are being told. I would say those giving the directives are not on the same page.

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The media puts the slant on their reporting, based on the slant of the people paying the bills. 

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17 minutes ago, AustinBike said:

Hmmm, I would not put this on the media. They are reporting what they are being told. I would say those giving the directives are not on the same page.

True. But is that what real journalism is about? Does that make the national media any different from folks that re-post things they see on Facebook?

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